Episode Transcript
[00:00:06] Speaker A: Welcome to the Truth Exchange podcast. This is a weekly program with Doctor Jeffrey J. Ventrella where he answers questions from subscribers around the globe, answering questions about worldview, cultural apologetics and other miscellaneous items. I'm your host, Joshua Guillotine, and this is another edition of the director's Bag.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: This is the Truth Exchange podcast. It is a preliminary symposium edition where we discuss the upcoming event that is every square inch, taking Christ's lordship to the streets with our speaker as and taking a glimpse into the theme of the symposium as well as the subject of their talk. I'm your host, Joshua Guillot, along with Doctor Jeffrey J. Ventrella. And today's guest is David Bonson. He is a husband, father, founder, and the managing partner and chief investment officer at the Bonson Group. David's going to be addressing human action and why work is in fact the meaning of life. He has a new book out called full time. I highly commend it to our listeners. In fact, this is a book that I'm going to require all four of my sons to read, and I think it's greatly needed. This is the first time in Truth exchange's history where we have done an event that isn't just analyzing the issues of the day, but this is actually an event where we are doing something about it, where we are taking not just the analysis aspect, but how a Christian should live in this world. And so, David, if you could talk to us a little bit about why I, our work is tied into our ontology or why as imago de why does that matter?
[00:01:54] Speaker C: Well, thank you very much for the question and engaging this conversation that you're exactly right. That to highlight it that way is the heart of the matter. It is my belief that there's a well meaning but shortcoming basis that most christians implicitly carry as to what they believe about work. And even in the sort of american tradition that we are proud of, individualism, a sort of rugged determinism, and that all these things are character building, goal setting, just the kind of hustle of work as a positive character attribute. I don't disagree with any of it, but I don't think it's ontological. I think that the basis of my argument requires creational theology, that beyond the mere character building that Harvey work and overcoming challenges and so forth comes with that, as you say, the imigo day reality of our creation, that we were made in God's image, that we were made very good, that we were made with an elevated dignity, that we were made to co create with him. And this is the heart of the matter with my view of the human person, that God made the world with abundant potential and asked his image bearers who share his likeness to go extract the potential, to go extract it and build civilization, to be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth.
That is a commandment to supply chains, whether we realize it or not, it is a commandment of cultivation of stewardship. There's a lot of verbs that christians are very comfortable using to describe some of the teaching in Genesis one and Genesis chapter two, but they are a little less comfortable doing a certain grammatical summary, which is that all those verbs are synonyms of work.
[00:03:59] Speaker B: What has been, I guess you could say the theological drift, at least in Protestantism, when it comes to there was a very strong puritanical work ethic. We saw it at the founding of the nation.
And it just seems like over the years, maybe within just the past 75 years, there has been this drift from an emphasis. Well, what you do Monday through Saturday is that secular, and then on the Lord's day, that's really what's going to matter in the end. And how, how did we get here to that point where there's been that kind of a drift? And you call it almost, it's like you refer to it as kind of a gnostic creep.
[00:04:43] Speaker C: Yeah. So the chain of events requires an understanding of gnosticism that gave way to dualism and the dualism that gave way to a retreatism. And then it requires, I think, for a reason. I'm going to get to here in a second, an additional consideration of why this is pronounced in our, in the way we view faith and work. What I would suggest is that at the early 20th century, in the face of modernism and humanism, that our escapist theology was not limited to vocational theology, that this was manifested with a certain retreatist orientation out of the church that was very pietistic, and it was applied to the domains of education, politics and the marketplace.
And that, that is my sort of early 20th century historical explanation, is that throughout a lot on into the mid century response to the forces of modernism, that the christian church largely decided that our home was not this world, and we didn't need to worry about engaging in these debates in matters of law, medicine, technology, etcetera. Well, what I'm most intrigued by is that there was a reversal of this.
For good or for bad, I would argue mostly for good. In politics, there was a reversal that I would argue has almost been entirely good in education.
40 years ago, we did not have tens of millions of people in a homeschool movement, in a classical school movement, in a christian school movement.
The church decided to reengage in the domain of education.
They decided to reengage in the domain of politics. Sometimes some of us could be pleased with how it's reengaged. Other times, maybe not so much.
[00:06:54] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:06:55] Speaker C: But my point is, the escapism of the from the political realm is not in vogue anymore, but in the work and our approach to the marketplace, it's largely stayed very pietistic, very transactional. And I believe that the reason for that is the marketplace is harder, that it is easier to rally the troops around power elections. It's exciting.
The marketplace requires the production of goods and services where consumers, investors, suppliers all have to harmonize, and that there are a lot of people under common grace competing with you. And it's a lot easier to just say, I don't care about that stuff. I'll do my job because I need to support my family and tithes to my church. But I'm not looking to go exercise dominion. And that domain has just been, as Al Pacino said, incentive a woman. It was just too hard.
[00:08:05] Speaker B: Do you sense that the winds of this issue will change?
Not to say that you could foresee the future, but your finger on the pulse of today's young people?
[00:08:16] Speaker C: Well, yes, I do, especially if they read my book. But in all seriousness, I'm very hopeful. You're right. It's tough to be prophetic about it, but there's a lot of indications that there's a growing desire to not be marginalized in society. And I think that we're fighting two battles at once. The book has to deal with both of these. I'd rather only be fighting one of them. But there's a societal problem that has a lot of Gen Z ramifications, and then there's a church problem that is specific to our theology and our, and the practice of life and doctrine. And I would rather that the church be fully aligned on this, and then we're just kind of at war with the antithesis over the issue. I don't think that that's the way it's going. I think you have societal pressures against a robust view of work, and you have church pressures against that, and it's really hard to fight a two headed battle here.
[00:09:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Jeff, do you have any thoughts on that? If not, there's something else I wanted to bring up that I think might be helpful.
[00:09:29] Speaker D: I just am grateful that David is keynoting as we begin our conference, because this whole piece, the understanding of calling and work is going to inform the other subject matter we're going to be covering at the symposium. So this is going to launch this thing very, very well. And then I would just ask David to comment on a couple things. One is he talked about the church, the tension, or even the opposition, and I've seen it described, and people have thought this is a very substantial, keen observation that you have success, but then you can be significant. And I've seen David actually call this great commission instrumentalism. What do you mean by that?
[00:10:14] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that it's a great commission instrumentalism, great commission utilitarianism. When I'm being generous, it's dualism when I'm being really a little more descriptive. And the notion that our success and our significance are at odds with one another are essentially why I wrote the book, Jeff, and some may know or detect from the title full time that it is trying to counter another book that was very, very popular, called halftime, where the subtitle of the book is literally moving from success to significance. And I believe the book is sold about a million copies worldwide. It's used as sort of a Sunday school manual for a lot of small groups and men's groups and things like this around evangelical church. The.
I don't want to say it's implied because it's reasonably explicit, and I'm not guilty of a straw man here. I'm being charitable and fair. They would say that you spend your first half of your life doing things you got to do, and it's a good thing, and hopefully you'll be respected for it and be somewhat fulfilled in it. But you got to pay off your house and save up for college and build some economic stability and raise the kids. But then, you know, after those successful things in your career and in your balance sheet, then you pivot to doing significant things, volunteerism, church activity, missions work, nonprofit work, etcetera. I don't know how you describe that as anything other than sacred secular distinction, dualism.
I think it's extremely misguided.
I do believe, if I may be so charitable, I think it's often well intentioned, but I don't think that makes it any less dangerous.
[00:12:14] Speaker D: No, I appreciate that. And I think that what I really appreciate, too, is your take on it is it's not so much as what you're against. You recognize some of the problems, but it's what you're for, and that's what you've set forth so well in this book and frankly, in a lot of your other writing and speaking, and I think anyone who attends will really capture this vision that says this is a theologically informed, robust understanding of the human person under Christ's lordship. And it's liberating then to be able to do these things in such a way, because that's where, in fact, our significance comes. And a virtuous market is just a great facilitator of it. Though it is difficult.
[00:12:54] Speaker C: As you and I know, Jeff, like myself, you're a sports fan. If there's ever a team that is playing the game wrongly in the first half, then I'm all for making a change at halftime. But I'm not for telling people to play a bad first half.
Let's plan on the lordship of Christ being prominent and dominant in the first half of our adult lives as well, and this implication that there are pragmatic things we have to do in the first half, but then those will tee us up to do more significant things in the second half.
It's a compartmentalized, truncated view of the gospel. There is a kingdom activity in our careers that we can do for both halves of our adult life, and that's what I'm advocating.
[00:13:45] Speaker B: Along with the success versus significance, you also tackle family versus career, work versus life. And you actually say, not work versus life, but work slash rest paradigm. And I really appreciated that section. And one thing I've seen about with Jeff since I've known him for about 13 years now, is that I've watched him model that out, and you talked about some of the issues that Gen. Zers are facing, as well as even millennials. Could you talk about why? What is the importance of that work rest paradigm that's essential for christians to live out?
[00:14:26] Speaker C: You know, what's unbelievable about this is that Jesus explained it for us.
This is not a burdensome commandment. Man was not made for the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for man. It's a blessing to us, and we do not work so we can rest. We rest so we can work. It is a recharge of batteries that mirrors our Holy Father.
He worked six, rested one, and he normatively told us to work six and rest one. And he told us the reason was because he did it, clearly laid out in Exodus chapter 20. And so now we have gone so long without a doctrine and practice of Sabbath rest, the six one ratio. I don't need to get into the specifics of how people applied it. I'm nothing as sympathetic to some of the hard sabbatarianism that spelt more chore like out of some of our puritan forefathers, as some are. But I don't think that's really the point. I think the paradigm of work rest, creationally normatively described, is what's important.
We ignore that, and then we go to a cartoonish alternative of wanting yoga classes and adult coloring books in the office for 30 year old people on a Wednesday.
It is infantilizing of these people and entirely unnecessary if they would just practice God's creational model of work and rest.
[00:16:11] Speaker B: Any thoughts on that, Jeff?
[00:16:14] Speaker D: I think it's 100% right, because the juxtaposition of what you hear a lot of times is work life balance. So it says that life, that work is something antithetical or opposed to life. That's just simply not the case. The same is true when you have this hierarchy that's imposed upon the human person of God. You know, family, church, such work. And that's just simply not only wrong headed theologically, but it's impossible to do. No one can do that because there are exigencies within a common grace, providentially ordained world where sometimes you're going to be working 100 hours a week. That's just the reality. But you need to honor the rest part of it, too. I mean, I started in law school. God opened my eyes, was actually small story. I came across this book written by Greg Bahnsen, and that just persuaded me of the normativity of some of these issues. And so I didn't study on Sunday. Well, I never had.
That became my habit, and I never had a trial when I became a lawyer start on a Monday.
I didn't control that. It just so happened that I believe that because in my meager way, I honored the Lord. He said, I'm not going to make you go to trial at 08:00 Monday morning, ever. So there's an interesting dynamic there. But it also wasn't a, well, like, I'm only going to work 36 hours a week because I'm committed to my family. Well, then I told actually counsel, a young man said he should quit law school right now, cap your debt, because you will be a horrible lawyer if you only work 36 hours a week. So that's kind of my running commentary on that, but amen to what?
[00:18:01] Speaker E: David?
[00:18:01] Speaker B: Yeah, and I appreciated David's tone. I mean, all throughout the book. It's. It's funny because you're not a pastor, but you are very pastoral in the way that you handle all these tensions and you almost, you anticipate the readers. Yeah, but what about and so on, and it's just, it's a really fantastic read. It's excellent full time work and the meaning of life. David, thank you for being on the program with us today. Again, those dates for the upcoming symposium in Pasadena, California. It's August 30 through the 31st at Providence Christian College. Taking Christ's lordship to the streets where everyday life is lived. Every square inch of creation is Christ. Let's live like it, and let's do it together. Thank you, gentlemen.
[00:18:47] Speaker E: This concludes the recording of the director's bag.
[00:18:50] Speaker B: For more resources from Truth Exchange, please.
[00:18:52] Speaker E: Visit us online at www.truthexchange.com. you can follow us on X as well as Facebook for more updates and content related to Truth Exchange. Be sure to join us next week week for more questions from the director's bag. I'm your host, Joshua Guillo, and this is the Truth Exchange podcast.
