[00:00:01] Speaker A: Welcome to the Truth Exchange podcast. This is the unique program where we have conversations about worldview all through the lens of one is a mantuism. This lens is based on Romans 1:25. We have exchanged the truth of God for the lie, worship and serve creation rather than the Creator who is blessed forevermore. Amen.
I'm your host, Joshua Gila with Mary Weller. Mary, good to have you back.
[00:00:26] Speaker B: Hi Joshua, good to see you. Sad that it's over the camera instead of in person. I got, I got spoiled while we were in South Carolina.
[00:00:33] Speaker A: So yes, we are now finally on the other side of that wonderful think tank. And be sure for our listeners to go and visit our website or wherever you stream podcasts those episodes are available. Mary alerted me that her lecture actually the last few minutes got was not on the that podcast. So go back and listen to it by the end of today. The. The remaining few minutes of that lecture is now there, so apologize for that.
We have a Special guest today, Dr. Christopher Yuen, who is a friend of Dr. Peter Jones and he runs a ministry on the issue of BiB, biblical sexuality and gender. Dr. Ewan, it's good to have you on the podcast today.
[00:01:19] Speaker C: Oh, it's good to be on with you, Joshua.
[00:01:22] Speaker A: So, Mary, you have done some work with Dr. Yuen and I know that Rosario Butterfield, who is also a good friend of this ministry, has done some work with Dr. Ewan. Mary, could you tell a little bit how you got connected with Dr. Yuen?
[00:01:35] Speaker B: Yeah, so it's funny, we haven't officially worked together, but we have chatted behind the scenes a number of times with various problems, projects that are going on. And I think I had read your book that you wrote with your mom about your journey to Christ and the Lord, just drawing the both of you to Christ. And it's. I remember weeping at my lemon tree at one point while I was weeding, listening to the audio version of that book and then reading Holy Sexuality and loving it and talking about how much I thought we needed to get you onto the podcast.
But it wasn't until I think Covid hit and things went a little bit crazy.
And at some point Rosaria Butterfield, our dear sister, had formed something of a discussion group about side A and side B, false theologies, argumentation for acceptance of same sex attraction, homosexual identity within the church that Christopher and I were both a part of. And I was so delighted to hear just the passion and also the empathy with which Christopher addressed these issues. As all of us were discussing ways to talk about Some of the bad arguments that we were hearing that were going on, and I think we had just about every denomination or every flavor of evangelical Christianity represented in that group.
And so that is how we kind of got to know a little bit about each other. I've had the privilege of sharing some things and even some ideas about like, kids books that I've reviewed on gender. And then I have lost count of how many people I have recommended or even given copies of Holy Sexuality to. So I'm thrilled to have you on Finally, Dr. Yuan.
[00:03:35] Speaker C: Oh, amen. Amen. So good to hear that there are resources that Lord has allowed me to produce. Have been not only informative, but transformative.
[00:03:48] Speaker B: Yeah, profoundly so. Profoundly so, so welcome.
[00:03:52] Speaker C: Thank you, Mary.
[00:03:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I hope this is just, I'm going to plug right now that this is just the first of many conversations.
[00:04:00] Speaker C: Well, so appreciate Truth Exchange and you two and Dr. Jones, for sure.
[00:04:05] Speaker A: Thank you, Dr. Yuan. I would love for our listeners to be able to hear your, your testimony. Holy Sexuality is a fantastic book and highly commend it. And we're also going to be talking about a resource that you have available for parents really, and, and, and their children that are struggling with the issues on sexuality. But for our listeners who may not be familiar with your ministry, could you share your testimony here on the podcast right now?
[00:04:35] Speaker C: Yeah, I'd love to.
I, I wasn't raised in a Christian home and my parents, they immigrated from legally. I always have to emphasize that today and the importance of that.
They, they came here with student visas as graduate students. My father was pursuing his, his Ph.D. in physical chemistry. He's really, really smart. I, I didn't get, I got the short end of the stick, but I, so they both actually came. My mother was going to get her master's and probably her doctorate in English literature, which is funny because she's like, that's, that's, that's not her forte because in, in Asia you just do what you're told and you're studying whatever they put you in.
But they came here and my parents were not Christian raising with very traditional Asian Chinese values, which has strong family values, praise the Lord, but they didn't know Christ.
Well, I wrestled with my sexuality from a very young age and I came out of the closet in my early 20s. I'm born in 1970s, so this was in the early, early 90s.
Growing up as a kid in the 80s people of the 80s, I just did not have a good experience with the 80s and, but amazing. This is how God in his Sovereignty took something that was tragic and heartbreaking and use it for good. And brought my. I came out of the closet in my early 20s, and my mother came to Faith. Isn't that amazing?
And.
And you'll have to read about it in the book. It's truly as much as sensational as my testimony might seem. Hers is out of this world.
Yes.
[00:06:27] Speaker B: I'm not joking that I was weeping at the lemon tree. Like, I just. Yeah. It's an unbelievable.
[00:06:31] Speaker C: Lord, it is. I still.
I. I still read that now. And I get emotional even as I talk about it, because that's the one who's forgiven much, loves much, and I. I hope I never lose that. I hope. I. People say, oh, you. You give your testimony hundreds. I mean, probably thousands now.
And I was like, you know, that doesn't get old or cold. And I said, praise the Lord.
It hasn't yet. And I hope it never does, because I want the freshness of a radical conversion, which is everyone.
When you have a heart of stone that turns into a heart of flesh, when your mind is darkened and you see the light of Christ, why should we not weep? I mean, it doesn't matter if you were a homeschool kid and. And your hardened heart toward the gospel at 4 or 5 or 6 or whatever.
[00:07:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:31] Speaker C: Or 12.
That's a. That's a miracle. Right? And so.
So my mother came to Faith radically. She was going to end her life. I mean, you know, it's. It's. You come to pursue the.
The American dream, which, praise the Lord, there is a dream in most countries. There. There is not. And they were able to achieve that. Achieve that. They literally came here with zero money in their pocket. And now very comfortably wealthy, but miserable. Right. The world does not fulfill.
And so the Lord saved her in a radical way. And then with a few months, my father did as well. They were very involved, or they were introduced to Bible study, fellowship. And through that, just through studying God's word, it was no program. It was not, you know, some, you know, you know, four laws or five steps or whatever. It was just the word of God which contained the good news of Jesus Christ. And both of them were saved. It was amazing.
I got worse. I went the opposite direction.
And I was originally from Chicago, and we were. I was going to Louisville. I was pursuing my doctorate in dentistry. And so I was in graduate school. I was in the doctoral program, and I came out of the closet.
And so I was doing. Just following the world. I was living a very pagan life. I was doing all That I could to love myself and have fun and very much a Romans one I was definitely. And, and I was, I started doing drugs and my parents this whole time didn't, didn't know the extent of my depravity, of my sin. Not just sexually, but in the drug scene illegally. I was not only doing drugs, I was supplying drugs. I was expelled from dental school just two months before I was received my doctor. So I passed part one of my national boards, part two of my national boards. And I just needed to get my licensing to be able to practice. And I was about to graduate and they expelled me.
I then moved from Louisville, Kentucky to, to Atlanta, Georgia. And I kept doing what I knew how to do best. This is right in 1996, right the week after the Olympics.
So Atlanta was booming. It was such a brand new cities. Phoenix coming out from the fire, the ashes of the fire, you know, that's what Phoenix Atlanta is known for.
And just in the middle of complete self worship of myself in hedonism. And I could say that now, but back then, if we were to meet, I would say, I'm so happy, I'm so fulfilled. This is who I am.
[00:10:21] Speaker B: You're living your true self.
[00:10:23] Speaker C: I was living my true self.
[00:10:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:25] Speaker C: And completely. And I say this all the time, which is why we have such a connection with truth. Truth exchange. I was living the lie that I was worshiping the creature rather than the creator so much.
And I really had become God. In, in my world, it wasn't just, you know, I was worshiping the creation, I was worshiping myself and others were worshiping myself. I, I had what others wanted, which was the drugs and the money and the fame, which is so fleeting, isn't it? And, and then eventually I was arrested, found myself well, but, but my parents were praying for a miracle. They even came to visit one, visit me one time in Atlanta. I kicked them out. I, I did not view them as. I did not honor them as parents. I did not view them even as family. There's this subtle lie. I mean that's how Satan always works. Subtleness. I love what Charles Spurgeon says. Discernment is not knowing the difference between right and wrong. It's knowing the difference between right and almost right. And. And as we talk about side side A, side B, I'd love to get back to that because that's always what it is. There's always these truths that are just twisted a little bit and, and people think, well, it's just twisted a little bit. I don't Agree with that. Well, that's lead you eternally away from God.
And so I, I was, they came to visit me, I kicked them out.
And my dad gave me his very first Bible. I remember it was an old book. Even though he had just been a Christian just for a few years and he just, had just tore it up and just, I mean, I mean it was all used, not torn up, but just dog eared, highlighted. And he wanted to give it to me.
And I told my dad, I don't want your Bible. I was so arrogant. And he left it on my kitchen counter. And they left and I took my dad's Bible and I remember this so clearly and I threw it in the trash can.
That was so symbolic of my hatred of God, Christianity and the Bible.
And my parents. It was so obvious to my parents that I was hopeless.
But they committed to not focus on hopelessness but upon God's promises. And they enlisted and had been enlisting over a hundred people, hundred over 100 people to pray for me by name. And my mom fasted every Monday for seven years. Once fasted 39 days on my behalf. She spent hours in her prayer closet interceding for me for many others. And she just knew it was going to take a miracle.
Miracle came with a bang on my door. I was arrested, found myself in jail. And I remember a few days after that walking around the cell block and I just thought, man, I just destroyed my life. I never thought I would get caught, walk by this trash can. I'm like, that's my life.
I was about to walk by it and something on top of the trash caught my eye. Bent over, picked it up. It was a Gideon's New Testament.
Took it back to my cell and I began reading it. And at first it was just not, oh, this is a good book. It was not like this is the answer.
I just had tons of time on my hands.
So I was like, this is the only book free book that they have. I better do something.
And I began reading it and it began to convince convict me. And I'm like, well, people say this is good news. It's not, it's telling me I'm a sinner. This is awful. This is awful. You know, and, and, and coming back to Romans 1, I remember so clearly. I was Oklahoma City and I was reading through Romans 1 and you know, Joshua, Mary, what stuck out, what stood out to me was not Romans 1, 26 and 27 on homosexuality.
What stood out to me was later when it said those who dishonor their parents.
I.
And this is how beautiful God works in softening and breaking our hearts.
Because at that time, I was still arguing and wrestling and thinking I could have my cake and eat it too. So I just thought, no, that's. Who knows what is natural. A natural mean, you know.
[00:15:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:01] Speaker C: And.
But that part about dishonoring my parents, all my friends, no one came to visit me.
The only people that came to visit me consistently and took all my calls were mom and dad.
And that cut to the chase and. And it just pierced my heart of I'm in rebellion. Like that.
That pass. That part of that passage, that was what initially just hit me like a ton of bricks.
I'm disobedient completely to my parents.
So read that book. I was like, this is not good news.
And so things got worse. And I got the news that I was HIV positive.
And this is back in the 90s.
So, yeah, it was. You know, all my friends were. Were dying. They were dropping like flies.
I mean, things were getting a little better maybe at that time, and so people were, like, living a little longer. But one of my really close friends, he was another drug dealer, had just. Just died of aids. I mean, it didn't help that he was always doing drugs and always having sex, but it was very common. So I got the news, and before. And this is how twisted again, the lie of Satan, where they.
I don't know if you remember in the 90s, I mean, all the quilts and all the parades, I participated in
[00:16:44] Speaker B: making a quilt panel for someone who. Who died of hiv. Yeah. So I. I do remember that.
[00:16:51] Speaker C: So people.
Individuals who died were lionized and memorialized.
[00:16:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:59] Speaker C: And when I had initially thought that I got it before and I hadn't gotten tested, I was like, oh, good, I'm part of the inner circle now.
So twisted.
But when I got that news, then, like, that was. I hadn't had drugs for a while, and I was able to think clearly. And I just realized the.
The devastation of what that meant when there's no cure, and there probably will. Will not be a cure.
And I was. So.
That was my darkest, darkest moment.
So I was in a prison cell.
They had just moved me to another one, which they often do, and there was no one else there. And I was just in my cell all by myself.
And it's all metal bunks, and these mattresses are awful. I mean, they're just, like, plastic and super thin and. And I was laying there, and I look up at the metal bunk above me, and there was just the usual. Just Graffiti, profanity.
But I noticed something else someone had scribbled, and it read, if you're bored, read Jeremiah 29:11, for I know the plans I have for you. Plans to prosper you, not to harm you, plans to give you hope in the future. And it could have been any verse, but God used those words, pen by a prophet thousand ago.
Rebellious nation, Judah.
[00:18:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:19] Speaker C: To tell me that if God could have a plan for Judah. Because I, I read that whole passage. I mean, Jude, Judah was not good. And I'm like, I'm not good. And yet I was still saying he had a plan for Judah, this nation that was just so rebellious, so dishonoring, so rebellious against God. And he said, I still have a plan for you, Judah, you rebellious nation. And then if you read on, it says, I'm gonna call you back out of captivity. I'm like, I'm in captivity right now.
[00:18:55] Speaker B: I was just gonna say, he's writing to them as they're walking, like, in chains into exile. And there you are.
[00:19:02] Speaker C: Exile.
How apropos those words were to Judah to tell me that if God could do that for Judah, he might still have a plan for me.
And that gave me that just hope of, this is a God who,
[00:19:25] Speaker A: who
[00:19:25] Speaker C: can look at rebellion, still love us, not love our rebellion. Call it out.
Call us to a greater, glorious, more redemptive plan. And I didn't know what that was yet, right? So I began, this is just the opening, because I wasn't even open, right, to even reading with God. And I began just reading and reading. But my biggest stumbling block was my sexuality.
So I was like, let me talk to a chaplain. And because I, I was not going to be open. I was very, very, very, very open and out and proud back then. And I didn't care what anyone knew, But I'm like, okay, this is a different situation, Prison. I, I, I assume I hear what they might do with people like my, like me. So I was like, I'm not going to tell anyone. I didn't share. That was not open. There were some that were, and they were kind of like, outcast in mar. I don't want to be like that. And they were very flamboyant as well. And I'm, I'm not naturally like that, which, which is also interesting. I do think there's a part of learned behavior that, that you, you kind of learn and copy, mimic your friends when you're having fund, etc. But that's not naturally. And I didn't really necessarily like that.
So I began.
I. I was. I was not open and I kept it hidden, but I shared it with a chaplain. I'm like, okay, explain to me what does the Bible teach?
And the chaplain said, the Bible does not condemn homosexuality.
[00:21:03] Speaker A: Writing. Wow.
[00:21:04] Speaker C: And I'm like, oh, my goodness. Great.
[00:21:07] Speaker B: Perfect.
[00:21:08] Speaker C: You know, this is so fantastic. I've got justification now.
And he gave me a book.
Boswell. It wasn't. It's not Boswell's.
It was. It was just on same sex relationships or same sex marriages or whatever In. In.
In Antiquity, I think is the name of the book. It was a smaller book. He gave it to me. I'm like, oh, my goodness. Fantastic.
[00:21:33] Speaker A: What year was this in?
[00:21:34] Speaker C: This was in 1999.
[00:21:38] Speaker A: Okay, so I'm thinking side A already inside B, already been part of a conversation.
[00:21:44] Speaker C: No, no, not, not really. I mean, you had. Who was the ghostwriter for.
I can't remember his name. That, that he was.
His book had come out, but there was no. That was not popular. He's a ghostwriter for Jerry Falwell and etc. Yeah. Stranger the Gate, I think, is the name of his. His book that had been out. But I wasn't reading any of that because. Because I'm not Christian and I don't want to be Christian. I don't want to, you know, meld the two. And. And so now I'm like, okay, I know there's a God. You know, we all know that there's a God. Romans 1 and. And the.
But we make God in our own image, right? So.
And that's what I was doing. And so I got the book. I was like, great, but I can't read that out on, you know, on the yard or on the.
[00:22:32] Speaker A: So.
[00:22:32] Speaker C: So. So he was like, you know, you can read this in my office and I'll let you allow you to read it here. And so I was like, good.
Well, at that time, I had already.
Unlike many of my other, you know, convict friends, I had been to college, I had been to graduate school.
So I was taught to think analytically. And I thought, okay, if. If this book is referencing primary sources, I need to. Right. This is scientific reasoning. I need to be read the primary source as well. So I had that book in one hand. See, isn't this God, that book in one hand and the Bible opened next to it because he was referring back. And I'm like, okay, he's saying this. Well, let me read, you know, he's mentioning Romans 1. Let me read Romans 1 in the Bible. And I would Read the whole chapter. Right. Because that's what you do.
[00:23:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:24] Speaker C: And I'm like, that's not what Romans 1 is saying. I mean, just at a. And you know, I had not learned Greek and Hebrew yet. I, I'm not learning any hermetical principles. I mean, they don't teach you that in dental school.
[00:23:36] Speaker B: Right.
[00:23:37] Speaker C: And not really learned ex, you know, exegesis and interpretation, blah, blah, hermeneutics. So.
But just from a plain reading of it, that's, that's not what that's saying.
And this is where the Holy Spirit comes in. Amazingly, there was so much conviction of just the distortion of that book. I couldn't even finish the first chapter.
[00:24:01] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:24:01] Speaker C: And I gave it back to the chaplain.
[00:24:05] Speaker B: What did the chaplain say?
Did you tell him why?
[00:24:09] Speaker C: You know, I, I didn't say. I don't believe it. I just, I just never got it back, you know, because it was. I, I would go for a visit and then read it and then, and yeah, I just didn't go back because I'm like, I gave it back to him because he didn't like give it to me that I could take it back to. I, I would go to his office, read it. And so. But I was like, that's, I, it's, it's not.
He's twisting what this book is actually saying. He's twisting the primary source, right?
[00:24:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:38] Speaker C: And totally the Holy Spirit. I mean, this is.
How can you not believe in an illumination of, of the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit does what he says he does.
[00:24:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:51] Speaker C: And so I was like, okay, if, if there's going to be any chance of me trying to figure this out, I'm just going to read the Bible alone. Yeah. And so I thought, okay, if it doesn't condemn it, let me see. I mean, if it does condemn it, let's just set those verses aside. Let me just read the rest of scripture and see if there's any positive affirmations for, you know, a same sex relationship. And I went through a whole Bible. I went cover to cover several times. I had time. Right.
I went through it over and over, just looking, looking, looking, and I couldn't find any.
So I was at this turning point. Abandoned God in his word, live as a gay man pursuing monogamous same sexual relationship. A monogamous same sex relationship.
By allowing my attractions to control not only who I am, but how I lived.
Or abandon all of that by freeing myself from my sexuality, by, by freeing myself for something that I felt like was a core part of who I Am who I was and live as a follower of Jesus Christ.
And by God's grace, I follow Jesus.
[00:26:06] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:26:07] Speaker C: And so days, weeks, months passed of abstinence and. And it was then, that was where God began to reveal to me which. It's so much I needed. I needed prison. I really needed to be in prison for two things. One, to be separated from the world. Not just from the world, but from the world of the gay community.
Separated, because that really will cloud my thinking and my thoughts and my affections. Not even in a sexual way, but just for my friends.
But also I needed time, right? I mean, aren't we all busy?
Isn't that amazing that God was like, I'm going to put you in prison and you can't complain. Don't we all complain, man? I'm so busy, I don't have enough time.
God's like, I got that.
I got that.
I'll give you three years, which I love, because it's like, yeah, Paul, right? Wasn't it three years?
[00:27:06] Speaker B: And three years.
[00:27:07] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:27:08] Speaker A: And this was your backside of the desert experience, right?
[00:27:14] Speaker C: Exactly.
And so I was like, okay, there's nothing here. And I was at this turning point.
And, and it was as I began reading, I was like, okay, then what if this is a sin?
Is it just behavior? You know, this is kind of getting to the hillside B side B. And, and I, I didn't fully develop this. It wasn't all in prison, but I was able to at least distinguish how is heterosexuality the goal?
This, this was very important to me because that's what I, I just thought. I mean, that's, that's.
Homosexuality is wrong, if that's what the Bible is saying. Okay, got that. So then what is yes, right? It's not, just. Which is why I wanted to write Holy Six Valley in the Gospel, because we so so often hear the no. Well, what's the yes? You know, I think a theology of sexuality is God's yes and God's no. We got the no, but oftentimes we don't get the yes.
So I, I need to know what is God's yes? And, and I'm thinking, okay, logically, it's homosexuality. Wrong. Heterosexuality is right.
But, you know, I was reading through the whole Bible, lots of time on my hands, and I'm like, man, there are so many, many, many times that the Lord God himself, the prophets and the apostles were calling out in literal ways or even figurative ways, adultery, immorality, sexual immorality. And I thought, wait, heterosexuality?
That's Too broad.
It's the right direction, but it's too broad.
[00:28:53] Speaker A: It's a, it's the natural created order.
[00:28:55] Speaker C: Yes, it's the, it's the natural creator. And I, and I would argue, I, I think Paul in Romans 1, in, in his, you know, he.
There's actual eight specific illusions of eight different Greek words that point back to.
In the SEPTUAGINT from Genesis 1 of, of that. I, I believe that for Paul, natural is not just kind of natural in a general sense, but natural according to God's created order. Not just any man, any woman, but Genesis 1 is one man and one woman. That's actually natural, not in the Greco Roman sense and Greek philosophy sense, but in the created order, one man, one woman, male and female that Jesus reiterates in Matthew 19 and Matthew Mark 10 and Matthew 19.
So I, I was like, okay, heterosexuality too broad.
The Bible is very clear also about calling out heterosexual sin. So this is not specific enough. And I'll just reading, reading. And it's like, okay, wait, it's. It's either if you are not married, which was me at the time, and I'm continue to be single, but not in the side B way where I could never get married. I think that's unbiblical to say that who are we to limit God? I'm open.
We should always be open to whatever God has for us.
And so I'm open to marrying biblically.
So I thought it's just either two paths. And I like to call them two paths, not choices. Because God is the one that, that is the one that puts us on either path at whatever time.
And it's either chastity in singleness or faithfulness in marriage. And I'm using chastity, not celibacy, just because of the weight, how that has been distorted today. Chastity and singleness, faithfulness in marriage. And that's what holy sexuality is.
[00:30:54] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:30:54] Speaker C: And also just this ontological discussion of who am I? Because that was huge. That I could not separate. Like Rosaria often says, and I like to echo her, she could not, I could not hate my sin without hating myself because I had fused sexuality with my essence. I mean, and talk about one ism. I mean, there's one ism of it that, that right. There is a one ism of, of conflating our sinful behavior and desires.
[00:31:31] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:31:31] Speaker C: To our ontology. Our essence.
[00:31:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:35] Speaker C: And as I was able to tease, it was as a Holy Spirit was able to tease that out in my mind as he illumined my mind, I was able to see this is not who I am.
[00:31:50] Speaker A: Right.
[00:31:50] Speaker C: It's how I feel. Feel. There's a difference. Those simple, you know, distinction of pronouns, not who, but how I feel is important, I think, for the gospel, because when we don't make that distinction, we are still united in Adam, not united with Christ. We're not talking about labels here. This is where the side B whole discussion, they're like, well, you're just. We're just quibbling over labels. We're quibbling over the gospel because you are either united with Adam or you're united with Christ. You can't be united to both. Right, Right. And so this whole thing was going on in prison and God during this time, people like to say, when did you become a Christian? When was that time? And I'm like, I. For me, it wasn't a time I didn't set a sinner's prayer. I. It was that. That year, you know, because I was sentenced to six. Initially, I was supposed to get 10. I was sentenced to six. And then he was miraculously shortened to three. You guys have to.
Listeners, you have to read. Read my crazy, crazy story.
[00:32:53] Speaker A: And.
[00:32:55] Speaker C: Which is also interesting because that ties to, you know, recently with the whole Carmelo Anthony, you know, the mother was like, my son was innocent. I was like, that is the opposite of what my mom said. She was like, he's guilty. She stood up in my sentencing trial. You'll love this, Mary. She told the judge, what is a mom supposed to do? You know, my, you know, cry, my son is innocent. You know, let him go. He's a good boy.
[00:33:19] Speaker B: Faithful are the wounds of a friend.
[00:33:21] Speaker C: Oh, my goodness. My mom got up there and she told. She told the judge, sentence my son long enough for God to turn his life around, but not long enough to break him.
Isn't that amazing? I mean, the wisdom of a mother. And. And she. She was like, I don't know what I'm. Because she. She knows. She was supposed to take the stand, and she didn't know what to say. And it was the Lord God, the creator of the universe, as she was praying that gave her those words so powerful.
At that time, I was still not. I was lost, and I was not. I was not happy about that. I was like, you're supposed to tell them, you know, Right? No, you're supposed to. Don't sentence me. But, I mean, that's exactly what I needed. Yeah, just sentence me. I needed that time long enough that my. That God would turn my life around and but not long enough to break me. Yeah, so it was six years. Then it was shortened to three years, which in the feds, you have to do 85% of your time. Not like state, which is only 50.
And. But during that time, you know, it was that God just removed the blinder from my eyes, took my heart and heart. And so I always say I walked into prison dead of my sins, and I left alive in Christ. I walked in as Chris Yuan, and I left as Christopher. I remember it so clear as day. This is very, very, very significant for me that as I walked out, I had to sign the paper. And when you sign, you have to sign your full name. Well, I normally just go by Chris. Everyone called me Chris. Chris Yuan. All my parties, my drugs, Chris Yuan, Chris Yuan presents. And I, you know, stuff like that. And I remember so clearly because I had learned what my name meant in Greek. Christos and Pharaoh, to bear, to carry.
And I remember thinking, Christopher Christ Bear.
And that's what my mom named me before she was a Christian. Isn't that crazy?
[00:35:29] Speaker B: I was gonna say that. But your name before the foundations of
[00:35:34] Speaker C: the world, before I was in my mom's womb, yes. My brother's name is Stephen, which is with. With a V.
But.
And. And I just remember Christopher. And from then on, that's when I. I kind of asked people to call me Christopher because the significance of the name that God had given me, that I'm to bear Christ. Which is why our kind of. My speaking ministry is called Bearer of Christ Ministries.
And so I left prison.
But I. I was like, I think I'm called a ministry. I was like, well, I can't do anything else. I'm an ex con. So I was like, I need training. So I went to Bible college and in Chicago. And my.
My references was a prison chaplain, a prison guard, and another ex convict.
[00:36:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:28] Speaker C: So I was accepted, finished there.
Initially I had a music minor, and then I was like, I finished my music minor earlier on in all those classes, but I was like, my roommate was a year above me, even though he was 12 years younger than me, and he was doing Greek and Hebrew.
I'm like, I want that.
[00:36:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:50] Speaker C: So as a junior, I started taking both Greek and Hebrew. And so I kind of got a double major of biblical languages. And then after that, I went on to.
To get my master's in exegesis. And at that time, that was when Greg Beal was at Wheaton. So Greg Beal, kind of his baby was the exegesis program at Wheaton.
But and he was able to get, you know, Doug, Moo Block and a bunch of others.
Just. It was amazing. So I got my master's in exegesis, and then I got my doctorate of ministry. So I kind of flipped around. Sometimes people get their m. Div. First, and then Ph.D. i got like a masters and exes. More academic masters, and then a more kind of pastoral, practical doctorate.
[00:37:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:36] Speaker C: Yeah. And then.
And was able to write my book with my mom and Holy Sexuality and the Gospel, which helps us to understand not just God's. No. But God's. Yes. And.
And that was named 2020 Book of the year for social issues. And then Covid happened, and I'm like, man, our burden is for the youth.
And initially I was thinking of taking my book Holy Seeks rebellion of the Gospel, turning it into, like, a teen version.
And as I kept thinking, I was like, this is back in 2020. Like, kids, I wish they were reading more, but they're. They're not. And especially if this is something to do at home. Well, how are you going to make a kid to read, like, an extra book at home? You know, a thick, deep, theologically rich book. Actually, the subtitle of my book, initially, you guys will laugh at this, was initially, I think right now, it's Sex, Design, Relationship Shaped by God's grand story. You know, God's grand story, Redemption, Fall, Creation and Consummation.
[00:38:30] Speaker A: Right.
[00:38:30] Speaker C: And initially I wanted to name it Sex, Sex, Design, Relationship Shaped by Systematic and biblical Theology.
[00:38:39] Speaker B: I would have read it.
[00:38:40] Speaker C: I know, right? And my. My publisher, my editor were like, no one's going to read that. I'm like, yeah, because that's what it is. I mean, we're looking at the imago day. We're looking at Hamas ideology. We're looking at, you know, you know, a theology of desire, which. Getting to side B, Inside a Theology of temptations, you know, talking about concupiscence and.
[00:39:02] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:39:02] Speaker C: And then a. The. A biblical theology of singleness, a biblical theology of marriage, and then getting to practical theology. Because don't we often just want to jump to practical theology when we have not established good exegesis, Good biblical theology. Good, good systematic theology. And so that's what I was like, man, we want to do that because Rosario's book on openness Unhindered, I think, was one of the first books that had addressed sexuality from a theological. And. And I would say more a philosophical, because I think she does a good, you know, work through philosophy and theology of a framework of that.
And. And now, you know, So I was like, man, we, we really need more of that. And you know, now we have Carl Truman's, you know, immense, incredible two books that, that does that so well of kind of a historical, philosophical approach to that. But I was like, let's, let's just look at, just from a systematic theology. And no one had really done that in a biblical theological framework.
So I did that and I was like, but we need to teach this to kids, to youth, because that's where the rubber meets the road. I mean, truth exchange. I mean, it's, it's recognizing that we, we have competing worldviews. It's not just like Dr. Jones says, it's not just morality. We, this is, you know, kind of getting a little ventilian here. And presuppositionally, you know, how can we give just all these reasons, you know, or behavior management, when their minds are
[00:40:32] Speaker A: darkened and got to get to cosmology.
[00:40:36] Speaker C: Yes, exactly. God got to start there and that framework. So, so we adapted my book Holy Sexuality and the Gospel into a video series that, that actually lays out kind of theology, but in a very engaging. That that was our goal and accessible way for teens. So we use animation and we also. Every lesson has two questions, two answers. So it's a little, you know, like a catechism, kind of like a video catechism there. Right.
[00:41:14] Speaker A: How many, how many, how many series is it? Or lectures? Yeah.
[00:41:17] Speaker C: So it's 12 lessons for the teens.
[00:41:20] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:41:20] Speaker C: And each lesson has three videos that takes about 45 to 50 minutes for parents to go through. And this is, this is a very much a paradigm shift because oftentimes when we think about youth, youth resources, we think, oh, have the youth pastors show it to the kids. That's not actually what this is for because the problem is parents aren't there. And, and I think we believe if we're going to have any lasting impact for true discipleship, it's not just discipling them on biblical sexuality once a year from the youth pastor. Youth pastor doesn't replace the parent. The church also doesn't replace the home. So this is the first of its kind, home discipleship, first of its kind that's animated and it has kind of these.
It's catacle using questions and answers. But then that came out about two and a half years ago and we just released very recently one for preteens. Oh my goodness. You guys have to see the animation. It is like exceptional. Our animation studio did phenomenal, keeping it very engaging. And it's a bit more story based Every video. So there's 24 videos. There are only eight lessons here, so it's a little shorter for preteens. Every video begins with a Bible story. So that Bible story is going to launch us into this discussion. Or it can be.
I think once or twice we might use a different story. Like I. I actually used.
You know, everyone's talking about the Odyssey now. Alien Odyssey, the movie. Well, and I can't remember if it's in the Iliad or in the Odyssey. There's a story of the Sirens. I think that might be in the Odyssey. Odyssey, yeah, the Sirens. And I use that story in my video lesson to talk about gender confusion.
Because the Sirens, everyone knew about the Sirens. You can't listen, you know, you're gonna. They're gonna kill you. They're gonna eat you.
But they.
They were able to deceive our minds and sing the beautiful, beautiful song. And sailors, if they listened, if they didn't plug up their ears would just go right to them. So it made what was bad look Good. Right. Isaiah 5.
So I use that story, you know, and I mean, I say graphic, but I didn't show the gory parts. It was. But in a very illustrative way of how we can be so deceived. We know it's wrong, wrong, but the world makes it look right. In our sin, nature makes it look right. So, anyway, super excited about that.
And something like this normally would cost like 200, $300, but it's.
My parents and my donors just cover the whole thing. And it's only like $20, which is ridiculous because our vision is that every household we're not going to recoup, every Christian household that. That wants to. Is able to get it, whether they're homeschool families. This is. I really had homeschool families in mind.
Single moms, grandparents want to do with their kids over the. Over the summer.
[00:44:21] Speaker A: Is this a series just if your child is struggling with. With homosexuality or. No, for all children.
[00:44:27] Speaker C: It's specifically for all children. And I know sometimes parents are a little hesitant because they're like, oh, I don't want to just like, just dive in and just talk about sexuality, you know, for the whole thing. Like, what was the one before that was popular as an audio one, I think done by Focus on the Family or Family Life.
Oh, I can't remember the name of it.
Purity or Passport to Purity.
You know, where it was like, I think that was four lessons, and it was very much on kind of sexuality and. And sometimes our teaching on biblical Sexuality comes across is behavior management.
Well, actually, I'm talking probably at least half of the time about teaching kids first a solid foundation of theology.
What does the image of God mean? What does the doctrine of sin mean? And how does that affect our hearts, meaning, our desires, our mind, our thoughts and our identity? And then how do we understand singleness and marriage?
Not buying into the world of, you know, going to be single for as long as I can or whatever, but being open to marriage. But if you happen to be single right now, you're not less than.
And having that, you know, that solid foundation. Before we jump into, how do we love, how do we share?
[00:45:49] Speaker B: I love that you're aiming this at an adolescent age and that this is not for parents. I mean, it would be useful for parents who are already dealing with kids who are struggling with their identity, but that you're focused on letting parents know. We have to be the people to talk to our children about this first.
And I've talked about this often on the podcast, so our audience knows a little bit of this already. But I sort of accidentally inoculated my kids against transgender ideology because I had started to study transgenderism. And I tend to filter everything because I've been with Truth Exchange for so long. I tend to filter everything through that theological, ontological, you know, idea of what has God created us to be if we try to be other than that, why doesn't it work? And I was sort of filtering, like, the damage that people were doing to themselves to my kids. It was just a part of, like, dinnertime conversation. And I've joked, but it's the truth that they would be like, oh, mom, like, could you. Could we just. My daughter, my youngest daughter, who's almost 18, was like, could we just have one meal where you don't say the word trans? You know?
But then when she got into junior high and my older kids were getting into high school, every single one of them had at least one trans identified friend. And they had friend groups, even the Christian kids who were coming around them and celebrating them. But my kids knew the damage and they knew that you couldn't avoid the damage, that the damage would happen if you didn't choose according to an understanding that first had God as creator with a purpose and a calling on our lives. They understood that there was no avoiding that damage. So they couldn't celebrate because they understood that they were going to be celebrating destruction. And so our kids have to know that ahead of time.
[00:47:52] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:47:53] Speaker B: Seems to me that yours is the first kind of comprehensive series that helps parents so they're not stumbling into it, because I'm sure my kids know stuff that they didn't need to know. But like, in a thoughtful way, letting children know and equipping parents to speak to, like the questions, the arguments and the justifications that they're going come to come back with, because that's what the world's serving to them. I just think this is so important and I'm so delighted that you're doing it. I just, I made up that Dr. Jones is going to review it so that I could see the video.
[00:48:29] Speaker C: Oh, that's great. I love it. Well, well, I mean, and the reality is not every person is like you, Mary, or you, Joshua, where this is what we do. You know, we, we read and we are attuned to all these things. Even a pastor, I mean, with just the pastoral roles of preparing a message and ministering to his flock, can always spend all this time on this. And, you know, definitely, you know, a homeschool mom or a dad who's working his job, you know, serving the Lord and working his job in a regular, you know, business or, or whatever it is, don't have that time to do that. So what we wanted to do was actually do the hard lifting first. And essentially we're just taking their hand. We always joke because this is daunting. I mean, like, you say all these things that what should I say? What should I not? And I tell parents, all you need to know is how to press play. Literally that.
That's it. And we take your hand, allow the videos and my teaching to speak. And then after every video, we actually have questions about three or four questions that then solidify what was just taught. But it's not just like a classroom question. I'm writing them in ways that's going to initiate conversation because that's actually one of our main goals is not just informing parents, informing kids, you know, educating them. It's having parent child conversations that will continue afterward. So we have the teens, pre teens. But what's super exciting. I don't know if I don't mention this, Mary. We're actually started the ones for little, little kids, 4 to 8 year olds, because that's.
The world's already going after a 4 to 8 year olds. And so we shouldn't just got a
[00:50:23] Speaker B: whole shelf of books.
[00:50:24] Speaker C: Yes, you showed me on the podcast.
[00:50:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, that's right. I sent you all the.
[00:50:28] Speaker C: Yeah, the picture books. Isn't that insane?
[00:50:31] Speaker B: And it's like a catechism of LGBTQ theology.
You know, that gets laid out for these kids. The clearest one, and I think I had. I had mentioned recommended to you, is it feels good to be yourself, but where they literally lay out and kind of like, define that a loving parent is an affirming parent, that little kids know who they are, and parents are just guessing. Like, they strip away the knowledge and the wisdom and the trust that children should have in their parents and. And in the medical community. All the medical community has betrayed us as well, but they strip that trust away so that little kids are looking internally for their personal truths. And so it's so wise that you're creating things for little kids that will create that foundation for them, that will. That will hold them when they're confronted with these things. Because it does. Even if you.
I mean, Joshua, you've encountered this, like you guys homeschool during a beautiful covenant community that just. It makes you ache when you're a part of it, because it's such a lovely, caring community. And yet when you take your kids for library day, they're confronted with a face full of lgbtq, not just affirming, but promoting books. And so they've got to have that foundation laid for them.
[00:51:57] Speaker A: That's right. Yeah. And we're nearing the end of our time together. And, Dr. Yuen, one of the things that I think has kind of popped out to me the most as I was hearing your wonderful testimony of God's faithfulness, that God answers prayer, that God saves.
But it's the issue of identity. And your series is called Holy Sexuality, and I'd like for you to talk a little bit about why you chose that. And before you do it.
When I previewed the series, it reminded me Dr. Jones has a wonderful teaching on Romans 12 called Holy Bodies Transformed Minds.
And one of the things that, as I worked for Truth Exchange for a number of years, one of the things that comes over when it comes to LGBTQ issues is parents saying, my son, my daughter can't separate their gay identity from.
From themselves. To do so would be for them to. To die.
And I. I wonder if you could share with our listeners about why you came up with this term holy sexuality. And if you could talk a little bit, giving wisdom to moms and dads, grandparents out there who are struggling with that issue. Their children are saying, I. I can't separate my. My, My. My sexual desires from myself. If I do, it would be the end of me.
[00:53:39] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, and they.
And I love that.
I need to check out Dr. Jones talk then on Romans 12.
As a matter of fact, we have an anchor verse for each of our series. The, the teens was second.
Second Thessalonians, chapter four, verse three. This is the will of God, your sanctification.
But for the preteens I had Romans 12, verse 2. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of our minds. It was Romans 12, 2a.
But I also of course went on and talked about will of God, et cetera and discernment.
The getting back to this whole discussion about not being able to separate their desires and, and I'm sure even the way that they would have articulated is probably not like, because if, if, if they're able to distinguish that this is my attraction, my, my sexuality is essentially an experiential aspect. It's existential, not ontological.
That's a, that's already one big enormous step in the right direction.
[00:55:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:55:02] Speaker C: They're not able. And it's still. This is who I am.
And kind of maybe pulling a, you know, to the. It's.
I've been in the past 10 years walking, rubbing shoulders a lot with a lot, a lot of other apologists, the majority of whom are not reformed. And it's sometimes frustrating because, you know, as someone who's been so.
I've learned so much from, you know, a presuppositional framework. The.
When we don't understand those presuppositions and we just keep throwing our, our reasoning or our arguments, it's, it's not going to land. Right. Because they have the incorrect presupposition or foundation.
[00:55:48] Speaker A: Right.
[00:55:49] Speaker C: And, and here definitely is one of those presuppositions is that they have conflated.
You know, it's one ism in a different way of not just conflating creation with creator or just get doing away with creator, but it is a pure, complete, utter conflation of sexuality in a Freudian sense with our essence.
[00:56:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:56:19] Speaker C: So.
And the reason why I brought up presuppositional is, is that one of our, our methods is just asking sincere questions.
[00:56:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:56:32] Speaker C: As to oppose, you know, making, you know, statements and asking questions. Tell me more.
Tell me, you know, when you say I am gay, what does that mean for you?
I know what that means, but I don't want to assume and I want to hear it and then just keep asking questions, poking holes in their worldview.
Because this is a worldview. It, it is a very Freudian view and carries over to even the worldview of today, which is the whole critical theory framework. Frankfurt's school of thought, which, yeah, Dr. Jones and you guys cover and Carl Truman does as well, which is totally what the world is swimming in and intersectionality. And, and then just without naming those things and those buzzwords, which people then can get offended just asking simple questions. Tell me more. You know, what other thing have we made? Whether a feeling or desire or experience, have we made it who we are, besides sexual desires, besides, you know, gender confusion? And, and we can agree with, we totally agree that sexual desires are very strong, unchosen desires, but that doesn't make it who you are. I actually use an analogy of something that generally even unbelievers would, would find as kind of neutral but not good. And it's depression. So when people say, well, I didn't choose this, therefore this is who I am. And as listeners watchers right now, you might have that son or daughter who was, you know, maybe raised in a covenant family.
And I didn't choose this.
So therefore this is who I am.
Or a very common one as well, is I prayed for God to take this away. I mean, this is the whole side Bible argument as well.
Not argument, but justification. Wrong justification. I prayed for God to take it away and he didn't.
[00:58:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:58:39] Speaker C: So therefore this is who I am. I've had this for as long as I, you know, as long as, remember I had these desires, feelings. This is, therefore this is who I am.
Do people choose depression?
[00:58:51] Speaker B: Right.
[00:58:51] Speaker C: No. Do people pray? I have friends who are Christian.
They wrestle with anxiety and they pray for God to take it away. Can he? Absolutely. Does he always? In most situations? No.
[00:59:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:59:06] Speaker C: It's something maybe that people for, have for a long time.
Regardless of whether someone chose it or not, regardless of whether someone prayed for God to take that struggle, that temptation away or not, regardless of whether we've had that desire, sinful desire, for as long as remember that desire is never who we are.
So having those discussions about, before we talk about morality, having these discussions about essence, personhood and asking these questions, I think can maybe jog people's minds to recognize maybe this is, isn't who I am. That's, that's kind of my process, my journey while I was in prison of, of God revealing those layers of, of false teaching and one ism in my life.
[00:59:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's great.
[01:00:01] Speaker A: Tell us about holy sexuality.
[01:00:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:00:04] Speaker C: Yes. So holy sexuality is this.
It was birthed out of my frustration with the whole Fredian, Freudian framework that we have often pigeonholed ourselves and parents you have pigeonholed yourself into.
And it's not only the, the framework of heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, but if I can also add for parents, it's also a wrong diagnosis and it's a wrong solution.
[01:00:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:00:37] Speaker C: Because in this Freudian framework, because Freud, you used to think that this was not just, it was not normal. And, and so he would treat this. And, and this is where, you know, for Freud everything is sexual. A baby sucking his thumb is sexual.
And so he viewed that the sexual development that people.
Regular, regular sexual development, which, I mean, in a sense that is regular, in a godly sense, you know, is this attraction to the opposite sex?
But, but for Freud it was useful.
He viewed it in a very sort of way that people started, you know, same sex attracted and then they would develop opposite sex attracted. That, that's part of his. I mean he had many crazy things.
But so, you know, a person that doesn't develop into heterosexuality had kind of a stunted development and causation is because of absentee father, dominant mother, trauma ones that, and that was then developed by others.
And that has kind of unfortunately been the go to for Christians even that don't have this nice theological framework of theological anthropology.
And as a result, parents blame yourself. You might be that parent right now. You have that child. You're blaming yourself.
What did I do wrong?
And I hope you hear me clearly, it's not your fault. What does scripture teach?
A person who struggles with any sin can't blame their parents for their own sin. That's not biblical. That's Genesis 3 when Adam was like that. It's that woman you gave me. Right? We keep wanting to push the blame.
[01:02:25] Speaker A: It's the parents you gave me.
[01:02:27] Speaker C: Lord, it's that mom you gave me. It's that dad. No.
We are culpable, culpable for our own sins. Now can there be effects and consequences? Yes, but that's, I view that an influence is not a cause. I view that as a catalyst, not as a reagent, if you want to use chemical terminology.
And so I think that's important. But getting to holy sexuality of the gospel, it was birthed out of my frustration with this framework. And I'm like, I think we just need to obliterate this Freudian, secular pagan framework that, that divides humanity according to our sexual desires. That's not a divine, a trinitarian way of viewing humanity.
So that's when I came up, I'm sorry, I read, I didn't come up with this. I came up with a term, but it was just me reading scripture and, and the, the Truth just came out of the pages of Scripture. Chastity and singleness or faithfulness in marriage. And so I coined this term holy sexuality to refer to what scripture just has always taught while you happen to be single. And that's myself and Mary. I know we've had the discussion, I mean, for a time of your adult years, you as well. And, and so during that time, we are just called to be chaste, to be pure, to be holy. I like that term chase better than abstinence, which is. Abstinence is like a. No, chase is more like purity, holiness, intentional. It's intentional and positive.
[01:03:50] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[01:03:51] Speaker C: Faithfulness in marriage. I chose that term because I think faithful chastity is kind of like myself, how I'm going to live worth faithful. As Scripture teaches, as Paul teaches. It's about the other I, I, if and when, who knows? I, I would love to. If one day God provides a, a godly wife, I am going to be going to committed to her. Marriage is a covenant. It's not a right.
And this, this holy union is me thinking of her and laying my life down for her. Ephesians 5. That ultimately looks to the mysterion that Paul talks about in Ephesians 5, the mystery of Christ in the church. A very eschatological view of marriage. And we have to remember that, and we need to teach that to our kids as well. Marriage is not the ultimate husband and wife. It's the penultimate.
And when we have that in mind. Which reminds me of the story of the man who brought Rosaria Butterfield to Christ, Pastor Ken Smith, a Reformed Presbyterian pastor who's now with the Lord and one of his wife of, I don't remember 40, 50 years. Floyd passed away. I got to interview him and he's in my book and he's in every one of my video series on marriage because he had some really impactful words. People would ask him, aren't you looking forward to the time where you'll be reunited with your wife?
He said, I won't have a wife in heaven. I won't have a wife in glory, but I'm looking forward to be fully united with Christ.
And as Rosaria, as I told that to her, she said good theology was Pastor Ken's healing.
That's good theology. Right? It's good theology that gives us that hope even in the midst of, of misery and sorrow. Amen and amen. Yeah, so anyway, I, I could go on, but, but that's what we need to be teaching not only our adults, but parents, little kids, they need to hear this in my one for 48 year olds. I'm not talking about body parts, I'm not talking about sexual intercourse. I'm just laying this foundation. God made you. We're going to call it from Psalm 139, wonderfully made for God.
[01:06:10] Speaker A: Amen.
[01:06:11] Speaker C: Not just by God, but for God. There's a purpose to that. And so that's, that's what we're doing. Teaching kids, you're made in God's image. That's not a mistake. You're made a boy, a girl. You can't change that. And that's good. Very good.
[01:06:25] Speaker B: You know, Christopher, this is so beautiful. And another aspect of this that I've been thinking about today and I'd forgotten that it came as I was reading your, your book.
But it is too that under standing, this biblical dynamic that you've described in, in teasing out and giving us words for holy sexuality helps those of us who have not dealt with same sex attraction understand that our sin struggles are not all that different from our same sex attracted neighbors, community members, friends, and even brothers, brothers and sisters in Christ. I think there was a separation that happened that we didn't even recognize because we're so focused on the fact that there was a difference in same sex desire from heterosexual desire. Because you're right, it is too broad that we didn't recognize. No, I am a woman who had a past that was sinful. I've never dealt with same sex attraction, but I understand wholeheartedly the things that led you to the devastation that you experienced. Because my desires, though they were not same sex desires, were sinful desires and led me to the same kinds of destruction. Right, right. So when I go to, to speak to someone who is same sex attracted, I think years ago I would have thought, but I can't speak to that because I'm not like her or I'm not like him, but I am exactly like him or her.
I have sinned profoundly in the same kinds of ways when the Lord brought me out of that sin. I still understand those temptations because all of us are made with a purpose. And when we sin, we are so straying from that purpose because we don't remember who God is. That's what it to. And so not only have you given us what that yes is, you've reminded us of that common thread. We are all sinners in need of a savior and gospel truth. And so you've empowered men and women of faith, I think, to remember that their witness is just, just as vital for those same sex attracted as for those who are, are not.
[01:08:52] Speaker C: Amen.
[01:08:53] Speaker B: And so I just. I cannot thank you enough for that. I can't praise the Lord for this time.
Joshua sent me a little message saying, like, go ahead and wrap it up. And I was like, what? We're just getting started.
[01:09:06] Speaker C: We can go on forever. And.
[01:09:08] Speaker B: Yes. So I hope you. I genuinely hope that you will come back.
[01:09:14] Speaker C: And I would love to. I can. It's so funny, you know, even as I look, some of my classmates that have finished and some are pastors, some now that are not, and.
And I'm so glad that God in his loving kindness is continuing to sharpen my mind.
And I've not become less theological, but more like I, you know, as an exegete, you start. Because I feel like that's. I needed to start there because I'm.
[01:09:40] Speaker B: I'm.
[01:09:40] Speaker C: I wasn't, you know, I didn't go to church, didn't own a Bible, none of that. So everything was new to me. So I was like, I just need to study the Bible and I want to do it in the Greek and Hebrew. So I was kind of looking at these passages, studying the trees. And then as God was growing me in love of his Word and scripture, that's when I was like, just. The doors of theology opened up and. And that's where. And I just. I could talk for days.
Yeah. So I love this. I would love to be back, Joshua, for sure.
[01:10:13] Speaker B: We'll reach out and get some more times on the schedule.
[01:10:17] Speaker A: There's so much that we could cover and talk about.
[01:10:19] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. And I know as we're wrapping up, and I know we have to. I know, I know that we have to. But I'm like, oh, I wanted to ask about this and we needed to talk about that.
[01:10:29] Speaker A: And we should get Beckett Cook on here and Zaria and
[01:10:35] Speaker B: marathon.
[01:10:36] Speaker C: Right? Yeah.
[01:10:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, as we're wrapping up and until we get to have you on again, can you please just remind our audience, because for some of our audience, this is brand new to them. They have not known about you. What are the best, like, two or three places that they can go to find you?
[01:10:54] Speaker C: Sure. Well, I actually have two websites, so it can get a little confusing.
[01:11:00] Speaker A: We'll put those on the podcast notes so our listeners can go there, There.
[01:11:04] Speaker C: Great.
So the first one is kind of just my speaking and my books and my videos, and that's simply my full name.
[01:11:12] Speaker A: Christopher.
[01:11:12] Speaker C: Right. Christ Bear. Christopher yuan. And that's y u-a n dot com.
[01:11:18] Speaker B: Okay.
[01:11:19] Speaker C: And then the video series, which is just this kind of. It's kind of like a video catechism. And it's specifically for home discipleship, not for the youth group.
Is holysexuality.com and that's just my video series. And right now there's two. I'm working on a third, but then all my social media handles, you know, follow me if you. If you're interested.
[01:11:45] Speaker A: And.
[01:11:46] Speaker C: And I'm kind of excited after I finish the kids one, hopefully come out later this year. I'm going to be working on sort of refuting myths on sexuality and gender. I already have about six of them out there. One was. Is Jeanette, is.
Is gay, genetic. Another one refuting the 1946 lie that somehow homosexuality was wrongly inserted in the Bible. I talk about Sodom and Gomorrah. Is it about in hospitality, you know, you know, these type of things. David and Jonathan. And I do it in. I have actually animation. So I try to bring a little bit of humor every once in a while. Oh, I also do the one very, I think, very humorous about animals, you know, are gay. And so it's natural.
[01:12:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:12:32] Speaker C: The biggest takeaway I always like to say this is don't take your moral cues from animals.
Should be common sense. Right.
[01:12:41] Speaker B: You wouldn't think you'd need to say
[01:12:42] Speaker C: it, but I know you wouldn't think so, but we do.
[01:12:46] Speaker B: All right, well, excellent. So Christopher Yuan.com and so holysexuality.com are the two places and then obviously all the socials. So, Dr. Yuan, thank you so, so much for your time.
I want to thank all of our listeners. I would like to point out to the South Carolina farmers that I did not meet any of them the last time I was out. And so, Joshua, that's on you.
So I hope and please do take the time to make a substantive comment since Christopher now has promised to be a regular guest on the show. If you have any questions for him, please send those in to us. Any questions about any of the recent episodes, please do send those in as well. You can reach all of
[email protected] the email address is officeruthexchange.com com and until next time, thank you so much and may the Lord bless you.
