A Worldview for a Biblical Man

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to the Truth Exchange Podcast. This is a unique program where we have conversations about worldview all through the lens of one ISM and twoism. This lens is based on Romans 1:25 where we have exchanged the truth of God for the lie, worship and serve creation rather than the Creator who is blessed forevermore. Amen. I'm your host, Joshua Gila with Mary Weller. Mary, good to have you on the podcast again. [00:00:30] Speaker B: Thank you. It's so nice to do this regularly now. [00:00:33] Speaker A: It is good to do this regularly and we're getting a lot of good feedback because of the regularity, especially the, the farmers here in South Carolina are very glad to have our podcast playing weekly. Of course, you know some of those farmers. We have a special guest with us actually in my office studio by surprise is my pastor and my friend, Pastor Josh Smith. Pastor's Good to have you on the program. [00:01:02] Speaker C: Thanks for having me. It's my, [00:01:05] Speaker B: I wanted to thank you for showing up live unexpectedly because watching Joshua scramble to clean really fast before you came in, I got to see on camera and it, it will be a good memory for the rest of the day. So. [00:01:19] Speaker C: Well, you're welcome. [00:01:21] Speaker A: And I'll be, I'll be resigning as, as officer of Cleanliness after this is a graduate of RTS in Charlotte. He, as I mentioned, he is my pastor, Pastor King's Church arp. He was one of the planters that established the church from Catawba Presbytery and he has been asked to participate. As we've mentioned, King's Church is hosting this think tank and he's been asked to tackle the subject of biblical masculinity or biblical manhood. And then of course, it's counter that we see in the culture today of toxic masculinity. Now, in preparation for this, this think tank, we've had some people write in and I think their concerns are valid. They've been concerned about the use of patriarchy and is there a biblical patriarchy? There's certain movements in Christendom that patriarchy has is the norm. I remember Dr. Jones, we were in a conversation with him a number of years ago where he was talking about feminism, how it is anti patriarchy, where we as Christians believe in patriarchy. I believe in God the Father, but with the rises and certain waves of certain movements, there's been certainly some abuse and unfortunately the abuse becomes louder in some circles. So when folks hear the word patriarchy, there's some concern. And so I think let's start off with Genesis 1, which I think if you Ever have to discuss the subject of sexuality and gender or gender roles? If we're going to make use of that term, we have to start where the Bible begins, which is Genesis 1. And so given that, what does it mean to be a biblical man or a man according to the scriptures? How should scriptures frame our thinking? Or as some in the progressive circle would say, well, these are just stories and they shouldn't frame, frame our understanding of what it means to be male and female. [00:03:40] Speaker C: Yeah. I think fundamentally a man is someone created by God to image him distinctly as male. And I think that looks a few different ways. I think some of the things that we see that men inherently have and that we see get distorted and abused are things like strength and leadership and authority. And of course, you know, again, we see the perversions of that and what's known as toxic masculinity. And I think we can identify those things. So when we say strength though, it's strength with an aim. It's not strength as an end in itself. It's strength that's shaped by responsibility, being responsible for someone other than yourself, being a protector, those kinds of things. [00:04:26] Speaker A: And that's what we see in the Genesis 1 and 2 model. [00:04:30] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:04:30] Speaker A: Is strength, responsibility. Some of the, some of the, the, the culture recently has talked about toxic masculinity. I, I think it's, it's probably helpful for us to define what does it mean when culture is talking about toxic masculinity. How do they define that? And, and does the church as, as, as a follow up, does the church embrace or disdain some of those aspects of toxic masculinity? [00:05:02] Speaker C: Yeah, I think toxic masculinity, you know, the problem isn't masculinity, obviously. It's, it's, it's when you have a masculinity that is defined completely apart and separate from the Bible. And so it's, it's a distorted masculinity. It's a good thing gone bad. Right. So it's, you imagine some of those things we talked about, like strength without sanctification. Well, it goes in a bad place. Right. Courage and boldness without self control becomes very domineering. And you know, when you have authority without love for God and for others, you just have power as an end in and of itself. So I think biblically, men are to take responsibility outside of themselves. They're meant to, to govern. But I think the strongest men, the strongest man in the room isn't the loudest man in the room. Right. I would say, I would say it this way, masculinity is more moral than it is muscle. Right? [00:06:06] Speaker B: Oh, I love that. [00:06:07] Speaker C: And so I think men are designed by God to govern, but they need to be able to govern themselves. And so the strongest man in the room isn't the loudest man in the room. It's going to be the man who governs himself well. And then the outflow of that is governing the things around him, his household or, you know, positions in society and things like that. [00:06:29] Speaker A: Some of the, there are some certain characters that have been mentioned in previous Truth Exchange podcasts that, that we would point to as being bad examples of a man or what the culture would probably embrace as toxic man. Yet some of these characters, and I'm thinking like Andrew Tate, some of these characters, they're drawing young men at an alarming rate. And there's some, there's some characters I think of Jordan Peterson, right, where it's, it's also drawing young men at a very fast, rapid rate that have a different message per se, but. And Jordan Peterson is not some built guy that's, that's surrounded by vulgar, crass women. Right. Like Andrew, Andrew Tate would be. And I was just, I was, I was thinking there's a, there's a poll that Carl Truman mentions in his, in his recent book about how there is this rise of young men that have been drawn to more conservative or in some circles, even more extreme conservative or what's known as alt right circles than before. So we're seeing this massive rise and. Oh, and where was I going with that? Where was I going with that, Mary? [00:08:13] Speaker B: Well, you were talking about certain care. I don't. Okay, so this is where I was hoping you would go. [00:08:18] Speaker A: Oh, oh, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. [00:08:21] Speaker B: Well, I was just thinking that the people that you. So Andrew Tate, or if we even take like popular characters and culture, so James Bond or Indiana Jones, right, where they're sort of, they are masculine according. Yeah, they're archetypes. But there, there's like a licentiousness and a selfishness. So they're like protectors and they're strong, but they're also, you know, they sleep around and, and they're immoral in other ways. So it seems to me that in some ways men deal with the same issues that women deal with. I've talked about it in terms of, you know, one of the things that's facing women a lot right now is like trans identified men or drag queens. And so there's, there's this comment like, well, I'm more womanly than you are. Well, they're really just dressed as tramps. Like, they take aspects of femininity, they sexualize them, and they make them an extreme. And it seems like in the. In the. The masculinity conversation, you guys deal with the same thing where there are things that are called masculine, but they. They don't have an aim, like you said, Josh, I love how you said that, that all of this is with an aim. Adam was created with a calling, so his strength and his leadership, everything he does as a man has a purpose and is under authority and these guys don't. And so then you get the Andrew Tate's, who. He thinks that he's the ultimate, you know, alpha male because he can beat up any man or any woman, quite frankly. He can have sex with anyone he wants to, he has the most money, but there, it's all pointless. Like, it's not directed at anything good. And so he's a tragic example. Then you look at someone like Jordan who thinks that the Bible is merely myth, so he's like, approaching more truth. So it's. It. It seems more wholesome, but again, it. It lacks the beauty of what the Bible presents to us. So I. I just find that interesting that we both deal with that between the sexes. [00:10:40] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, you talk about Andrew Tate and I. I've seen some stuff. You know, I haven't done a deep dive, but I'm aware of him. I'm aware of his influence. I'm aware of his views and ideas about some things. [00:10:53] Speaker B: Things. [00:10:53] Speaker C: And it's just. [00:10:54] Speaker A: It. [00:10:55] Speaker C: I find it so funny in a sad way, you know, and alpha. There is such a thing? Well, yeah, that. But, you know, alpha. You know, we understand what people said, say that that's usually not the guy that has to tell you he's the alpha. [00:11:14] Speaker B: Right. [00:11:15] Speaker C: So there's this insecurity. [00:11:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:18] Speaker C: You know, masquerading as. As masculinity and this. [00:11:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:22] Speaker C: Bravado. That's not really courageous or truly confident. It's. It's. [00:11:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:28] Speaker C: And the other thing with. With Andrew Tate, you know, I see a guy who's training men to take as much out of the world as they can, take as much from the world they can, rather than contribute to it. And I think that's really nasty thing, to lean into that selfishness. Right. To. To feed those desires. Those are natural desires, and that's just a complete lie. It's a lie. It's a lie from hell. [00:11:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:58] Speaker C: You know, you can have a strong man who's a Slave to his appetites. That's. That's weakness. Yeah, it's vulnerability. [00:12:07] Speaker B: Well, and it's sad the extent to which he's reached into younger generations and influence them. My, My youngest daughter, when she was a freshman in high school, so this was last year, I was picking her up and I had picked her up a little bit late from one of her on campus days. She was really upset and she had been sitting one bench over from these two boys who were talking to each other. And one of the boys had made it clear that he was super into Andrew Tate. And he's telling this other boy, he said, yeah, I. I have this new strategy that's totally working to get girls to like me. He goes on to describe to this kid that what he's done is if he likes a girl, he'll go up and start talking to her and then just insult her. Like savagely insult her in some way that is just completely humiliating. And she's shocked and she gets really upset. And then he waits a couple of days and he would, he will go back to the girl and be like, hey, I'm so sorry, I never should have said that. And we'll give like this very introspective, like, analysis of how wrong the abusive thing that he said was and that then in showing how deep he is by having done that, of first savaging her, but then, like, having done that, then she'll start to like him. And he was describing to this other kid, you know, because I'm not that cute. Like, I'm not as tall as the other guys, but like, if I really. And this was something that he had learned from listening to some kind of Andrew Tate training, you know, and this is at a very conservative, high Christian population charter school, classical charter school that we have in town. And my daughter was just like, so many guys are doing stuff like this. And so. And it describes what you were just saying, Josh, like this kid, he just wants to get girls. Right? He's not thinking about, well, why would I need to tear a girl down in order to attract her? What? You know, it's an utterly selfish, self driven kind of idolatry that he teaches. And it, it's really, it's so ugly. [00:14:16] Speaker C: Yeah, it's, you know, let's, let's begin building this relationship on emotional manipulation. [00:14:21] Speaker B: Right. [00:14:22] Speaker C: I mean. [00:14:23] Speaker B: Right, right. To take dominance over her some way by really just like causing emotional harm immediately. You know, so it's out there. I mean, it's right, it's right out there functioning in our circles. [00:14:36] Speaker C: Frankly, I get that you have young men who are starving for some kind of blueprint or road map. I mean, you imagine like if we're standing on a piece of property and there's building materials, you got, you know, the wood two by four stacked up, you got drywall and whatever else, and. But you've got no instructions, you've got no blueprint. And you just start picking up a hammer and you start putting together what you think is supposed to be a house. And then you have, you know, these competing views coming from the culture, yelling instructions at you that are completely opposing. Like one's like, no, don't build walls. Walls are oppressive. Those are divisive. You know, and then you got, you know, somebody else telling you, oh, you know, you're, you're not using the right brand of this or whatever. So it is confusing. And I think guys are looking for a map. And sadly to the point that you guys are talking about now, some of the loudest voices are these social media influencers who are handing out maps. Yeah, they're handing out the maps. [00:15:38] Speaker A: Yeah. I think that's where I was going to go with that question is why, why do you think that these men are having such an influence? And I was thinking about the Carl Truman as he was talking about in his book, his latest book about this shift and this rise of young men who are being drawn to very conservative values. But with like Andrew Tate, you don't really have anything that's good or anything moral in him. He just has raw strength. Yeah, but of course, strength, this strength is a complex thing. There's, there's, there's muscular strength, right. Being able to do pull ups and chin ups and those are, those are of value. I mean, we don't want to be slouches per se. We don't want to astrophy or like our muscle just to go to nothing. [00:16:22] Speaker C: Gelatinous physical training is of some use. [00:16:25] Speaker A: Some use. But there's another type of strength, right. The restrained man who can control. Like I was having this conversation with one of my sons recently about controlling not just your muscles, but controlling your words, controlling thoughts. And these are, that's part of strength, right? Yeah, but in my experience in, in, in, in Christendom, at least I, in 30 years or so, probably less on, but there have been, there have been waves of, of movements of churches wanting to do something for men because it seems like it's on. I don't know if it's every generation there's some sort of rise. I mean, my introduction really into it was in the 2000s with Acts 29 and Mark Driscoll. [00:17:21] Speaker B: Right, yeah. And prior to that, like the Promise Keepers movement. [00:17:25] Speaker A: The Promise Keepers movement and, and Carl Truman in his book, he didn't want to assign why are we having this issue? He felt like it was too, too soon to be able to have some sort of, of finger on the pulse of it. However. So I'm going to be a little bold, I would say in truth exchange. Peter Jones has always tied a lot of the shift of the spirituality of America at least to the 1960s. [00:17:55] Speaker B: Right. [00:17:55] Speaker A: So that the hippies went east and the gurus came west. Part of the breakdown then in American culture spiritually was the first thing that eroded was sexuality, which then when, when sexuality and you start to allow the truth to be swapped for the lie, you embrace the lie about what? Not only about what God says about sexuality, male and female, but then the strength that comes with it, the responsibility that comes with it. And there's the breakdown of the family. [00:18:33] Speaker C: Yes. [00:18:34] Speaker A: So most certainly family seems to be a key component to why some of these young men. I've never seen yet a father and son go to like an Andrew Tate kind of rally or a Jordan Peterson kind of thing. But it seems to me that there is some sort of breakdown in the home that young men are going to the Andrew Tate's or they're going to the, the, the Jordan Petersons of the world. [00:19:04] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I mean fatherlessness is a big deal. And you know, whether that's a live in father who's absent emotionally and just really isn't present, boys are going to find a model, they're going to be discipled by somebody, they're going to look for that map like we said. And so, you know, it's so important that you have fathers who are really present, particularly in their boys lives. I mean I have six sons, you know, I have six sons, one little girl. And the truth is I see my boys better than my wife does. That's not a deficiency in her, but it's something that, you know, I've been given as their father. I can just see that there are certain things we're crossing certain mile markers now and milestones where, you know, this is a lesson that needs to be learned in a hard way and to let them do that and to experience some failure, I think that's another thing to just prevent them from ever failing at anything and insulate them from hardships. And there's just scrapes and bruises that build character that we need to allow Them to feel. And so those are things, just as I said, that I'm really in a better position to be that God has put me in, to be able to see my children in that light, my son's in that light, where my wife not might not so much. And so I think guys can really underestimate how God intends to use them in the development of their children, particularly their sons. They need that model, and if they don't have it, they'll find it somewhere. [00:20:46] Speaker A: Yeah. What about men who have grown up with good structure homes, who have maybe not been drawn to, say, the Andrew Tate's, but have been drawn to certain things that have raised question, who have a good home. Mom and dad are still together. Dad was committed, dad raised the family the best he could. Christian environment. But yet still young men have been drawn to certain aspects of the culture is a rejection of God's truth and in his embracement of a lie. [00:21:21] Speaker C: Yeah. And this is where I think, going back to that house analogy for just a second, I mean, everybody's building on something and, and what scripture say though, you know, unless you build your house on the rock, you know, and so when we see Christ as the perfect man, the ultimately masculine man, you know, we, we see someone who understood authority and you know, you know me, I'm at all, not at all arguing for, you know, ess or anything else, but we see him perfectly obedient to the father. Right, right. We see him loving his bride. Well, it would lay down his life to, to protect his bride. And so you have that sort of model. And so there's, there's aspects of that that I think excite younger guys, but just in theory or, or abstract, they don't really understand. Okay. Part of strength, part of masculinity is recognizing authority and submitting to it. That's not a female thing, that's a Christian thing. [00:22:28] Speaker B: Yes. [00:22:29] Speaker C: And so that, and so I think that is absent. I think there's a bucking against authority. And this idea, this false idea that, well, that's an expression of my masculinity. I don't ever have to apologize for anything and I'm nobody's boss over me. That's not biblical. [00:22:47] Speaker A: Do you feel like those voices are winning the day? The voices that in order to be a true masculine man, you need to have this political ideology, you need to look this way. Either have this many women or be a, be a monogamous man. But your monogamy needs to look exactly like this. [00:23:14] Speaker C: Right. [00:23:15] Speaker A: Your wife needs to have a Doyle on her head and your children need to look a certain way. Are those voices winning the day? [00:23:27] Speaker C: Yes, because I think what we're talking about, real true biblical masculinity looks like sacrificial responsibility and that's frankly harder, you know. [00:23:40] Speaker B: Yeah. It reminds me of this debate that was going on and I'm, I'm of course too online for sure, but there was this debate going on about a year ago on Twitter, slash X about the red dress, like where there was a guy and I, I can't remember his name. He's some, he's one of the, oh, I can see his face and I can't say his name right now, but he's, he's big online and, and kind of in this hyper masculine movement. And he basically said on a podcast that like, well, if I like my wife in a red dress and I demand that she wear a red dress every single day and that she not wear anything else ever, but only red dresses, then a godly submissive wife would do that. And it, it's right for me to make that demand on her. And so it just fired up this entire conversation. Amongst like professing Christians. But I think to your point, Josh, I remember sitting and thinking during that, well, why would you want her to do like, it's, it's a completely self sartorial help, but it's like a completely self serving demand. Right. Like anything for her, it could make things complicated for her. It, it's using her as a mannequin. It's not like it's a, it's a self serving thing. So I think, I mean, we're coming back to the same point over and over again that yeah, it requires no sacrifice on like there's no sacrifice on his part in his picture of what it is to be masculine. Like his one justification as well, because I like it. So she should do it. And, and you're right, we, we did see, we do see Christ obedient and, and I think even with pastors, you know, there have been conversations recently that I've had with a couple of friends about concerns about they're coming out of very damaged situations and it's hard for them to submit to a session of elders as, as women who have dealt with men who, who were overbearing and abusive. And one of the things that I've, I've reassured a couple of these friends about is, but our elders are under submission too. They submit to one another. They, they have placed themselves, you know, as Presbyterians, you're in a system where if somehow you ended up with an entire session of abusive elders, you have another level to whom you can go. And they all submit themselves before the Lord. That's part of what ordination, like when you listen to ordination vows, they're so beautiful because they acknowledged that submission. And she had never even really considered the fact that men biblically are also required to submit and be under authority. And that's such a, it's a protective and beautiful thing. And it does require strength to do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:26:55] Speaker A: I, oh, good. [00:26:56] Speaker C: No, I was, I was going to say on that point, I think part of the problem is as well meaning Christian men who understand male headship is, is a biblical category and they're trying to navigate that. Sadly, I think they, they minimize that or isolate that to like a right to command. And we've talked about this before, but thinking, you know, this authority, this biblical authority they have, headship means a right to command rather than this responsibility to carry, you know, and that just, that just separates it from the whole mission. You know, that's, it's, it's like power without love. [00:27:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:41] Speaker C: You know? [00:27:41] Speaker B: Yeah, you elaborate on that. I've never heard it put that way. So authority is not simply a right to command. [00:27:49] Speaker C: Yeah. You know, as I think about male headship in the home, what is in view there is not simply a right to command. And just being a shot caller, it's, I've got this burden on my back. I'm accountable before God for the direction of this family. He's laid that responsibility squarely on my shoulders and I will answer to him for how I've, I've stewarded these, the, these people that depend on me. And so that's, that's a piece of, I think we've tried to. Society applauds and rewards and I think puts a really high premium on boys staying boys with, with bank cards, you know, where they, they're trying to avoid responsibility. And so they view things like taking on more and more responsibility and having people depend on them being a husband, being a father. And in their mind this is settling down really biblically, these things are stepping up and means to be a man. Right. But because we're conditioned to believe that these things are burdens and not blessings and that sort of thing. They're, they're, they're never aiming at the right thing. They're not mission oriented. They're by self. And so whatever authority they think they have in the home, they're going to use wrongly. They're going to view it simply as, as I said, just a right to command. Well, that's what that means. And so what I said, [00:29:21] Speaker B: that's interesting because I think a corollary for women, and this is a conversation I've had with my daughter and stepdaughter recently. Is that feminism? And, and you're right, Joshua. It is that spiritual or that sexual revolution that, that resulted from the spiritual changes that, that the change in worship in our culture. But feminism has so eroded the idea in women's minds that being a mother is of superior value to having an excellent career. Right. To being a girl boss. And Rosario made reference to this when we were talking to her last week about the young woman who got up and said, I am called to be an astronaut, but I am not called to be a mother and a wife. And, and I see my girls struggle with that. Even I have an almost 16 year old and I have a 20, almost 23 year old. And they, it's sort of like they want to go to college and have their careers and do these things. And I'm constant. And that's fine. Like, I'm not saying don't do that, but I am constantly talking to them about how those things, they're not wrong to choose as long as you're choosing them in preparation for being a woman who can add to her family and grow her family and benefit her family. Like, what is better than growing a little human being and having them. And I think you're saying the same thing for men, where the authority that you have and then getting to have a wife and have children for whom you're responsible, that's not settling down. That's the ultimate, is the ultimate thing because you are doing what you were built for. You're doing literally what God called you to. And it's just interesting how men and women have these similar temptations to, to devalue the very things that they were, that they were made for by a beautiful and loving God. [00:31:35] Speaker C: Has God actually said, yeah, yeah. [00:31:38] Speaker A: You know, and as I was reflecting just hearing this conversation take place is that in the old, in, in all of scripture, really, you have example after example. Bad, bad dads. [00:31:56] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:31:57] Speaker A: You also have like, dads who tried. And so the problem of rebellious sons is not new to this side of the garden. And while it's not new of sons looking to bad models or bad fathers doing do not taking on their ownership or dads who tried and, and, and whether failed or not, I don't think that's, that's the point, but they did try. What is the Biblical model, then for the household as a response, as, As a pastor, you. You're looking at scripture and you're seeing young men that, that may be having this proclivity towards this error or maybe not. What would you encourage first for fathers and mothers towards their sons? [00:33:04] Speaker C: Yeah. Okay. I think I'll go out on a. On a limb here and take the heat for it if I have to. Men are civilization builders, and the feminists can shriek about that all they want. It's just true. It's just part of God's design. And I think, you know, we would sell ourselves short by not recognizing that a piece of that, that civilization building is building a culture on the home, which is where the. The. The wife and the mother is absolutely crucial. And sadly, I think, you know, there are a lot of women, as you were saying a moment ago, just like men are, Are not viewing things rightly, maybe women are not viewing that. That gift and that responsibility and the impact that that has. But when the household breaks down, I mean, everything's downstream from the family. So, you know, people say it a lot of different ways. You know, as, you know, you know, the man shapes family and the family shapes the churches and churches shape society and society shapes nation, so on and so forth. Everything's downstream from the home. And so where I think young men, as we're talking about, need to keep their attention is like a stay in your lane kind of conversation. If you're focusing on what God has put right squarely on your shoulders and in your hands and right in front of you, all of this other stuff out here, you wouldn't feel like you needed to show up to every fight that you're invited to online. You wouldn't have to weigh in on every single subject. You wouldn't have to worry if this just changed or that circumstance were better or whatever. If you stay in your lane and you focus on what God has given you to do, the mission that he's given you to do, these things are going to change. Why? Because God said so. He ordered it that way. And it just. History shows that's beneficial to society. So, yeah, the focus should be on the family. [00:35:08] Speaker A: What kind of things are you and Amanda doing to build civilization? Yeah. [00:35:17] Speaker C: Okay. [00:35:17] Speaker A: To get personal. [00:35:20] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, we got a lot of things cooking and I mean, I could. I. I know I shared this with you already. My wife homeschools her children, the ones that are of school age, and I could just tell, like, the. The wheels were falling off a little bit. My office is upstairs, and I'm kind of isolated and in the zone and I'm not aware of some of the things that might be going on downstairs. But I was getting reports that they just were kind of out of pocket, you know, a little bit out of character. Something's, something's shifting. They're not given their schoolwork, their full attention. They're not completing their tasks. They're, you know, they're, they're, you know, bickering with each other and driving her crazy. And, and so one morning after family worship, I said, you know, let's have a little meeting here. And I said, because I'm your father and because I was a boy too once, I can see very clearly what the problem is. You have too much energy and too much free time. And because I love you, I'm going to take both of them. And so we started doing some calisthen. You know, they were to get out the wiggles and burn up some energy. And you know what, when they sit down at the table and the books get opened, right. They're ready to concentrate. And, and instead of just having this open ended free time, we're giving them some things to do, some, some structured things. We had the older boys the other day put together a scavenger hunt for their younger brothers. So that was their activity, is, is gifting their brothers with an activity. And so some of those kinds of things. And we do, we want our, our home to be characterized primarily by joy and laughter. We want them to see what matters most to us. You know, so when we talk about family worship, we want that to matter to them and they need to see that that's what matters most to us. And, and we want to create a culture in the home that is so beautiful. They want it when they home. They know what they're about, they know what they're looking for. They're not going to settle for less and they will die to defend it and protect it. That's a manly thing. [00:37:29] Speaker A: Talk about that. Family worship, I think. And I, I've said this on the podcast for years. Mary, you're gonna hear it again. Catechize your children. The devil will. And I've, I've talked on the program a number of times who, the importance of catechesis and family worship. Talk to us about the, the primacy of, of catechesis and family worship in your home. [00:37:57] Speaker C: Yeah, so we, we're flexible in kind of what we do. We'll change things up. We don't have something that's so set in stone. We never deviate from It. But we, we read the Bible, pray the Bible, sing the Bible. Those are, you know, sort of the, the core things. But man, do we make use of the catechisms. Because why wouldn't. Yeah. [00:38:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:25] Speaker C: And so they, they have memorized the, the children's catechism. Our older boys are working on the, the Westminster Shorter. And what's so fun about that is. And this would just be my encouragement to any, any men listening who are not doing that yet maybe feel like they should be doing it. I just want to encourage you, the, The Lord blesses faithfulness. Like, if you're faithful to do that, you're going to begin to see your children connecting the dots. And because you've been through it so much, when your children do have questions about something they've read in the Bible or something they saw on an ad or whatever, that stuff, because you've been going through it with them, a question, the Lord's going to bring one of those questions to mind and you're show them they already have the answer. Right. And, and how, you know, I hate how, how much this word's misused, but you understand what I mean. How empowering is that, right? Where they recognize, oh wow, I actually know how to navigate life. I know how to navigate difficult questions and things like this. There's, you know, I just, I look to what I've, what I've learned and what I know and I piece this together and well, if that then this. And they're able to think through some pretty deep stuff. [00:39:35] Speaker A: Stuff. Yeah. [00:39:36] Speaker C: At an early age. [00:39:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I. There was Pastor Josh and I had received a letter from somebody once or recently and they commended the use of our church. Does we have a time at our church that has children's sermon, sl. Children's catechism. That's part. That's. That's baked into our, our Sunday morning liturgy. [00:40:00] Speaker B: Oh yeah. [00:40:01] Speaker A: And somebody had had wrote to Pastor Josh and to me about they loved that aspect of our church and never. They never seen it, never experienced it before and how they wished that they as young men had been asked those kind of questions and been had able to have the chance to even articulate that kind of an answer that Eve. And so that's just speaks to the wonders of King's Church. So if you're local in Irmo and Columbia area, look no further because we have a wonderful church for you as we're wrapping up. As we think about the theme of the God of sex, why is recovering the robust vision of biblical manhood essential for the health of the church and for the family, [00:40:58] Speaker C: I would say, because criticism isn't cutting it. And I think that goes both ways. I think just criticizing the stuff that we see wrong isn't good enough. We could be in complete agreement with those criticisms, but it doesn't go far enough. And I think us seeing the problem for what it is and criticizing young men isn't enough either for. For what they're. They're lacking or not seeing. I think really there has to be an intentionality on our parts to give them a vision for what it means to be a man. And so that's happening in the home. And whether or not it's happening in the home, it needs to be happening in the church. And I'm not trying to knock any church in particular. I think we might all agree that over the past maybe 30, maybe even 50 years, the church has sort of catered towards women and children and what they offer in terms of program and stuff like that. I think we got to recognize men. Men know their men. When older men tell them, you know, if you. If we asked right now, when did you know you became a man? You're going to get very different answers. And it's probably going to have to do something with when I lost my virginity or when I got my driver's license, or when I turned 21 and could buy a beer, or when I enlisted in the military, you know, whatever. And it's just sort of these superficial kind of things. I think every man ought to be able to confidently answer that question and saying, I knew I became a man when I was given responsibility and told, you're not a child anymore. We're counting on you. Yeah, we're counting on you and, and receiving that. And I think there's ways that you can do that. You and I have talked about sort of rites of passage kinds of things, and so that could look a lot of different ways. But, yeah, I think they're. I think they're looking to older men to look them in the eye and say, you're a man now. [00:43:02] Speaker A: Yeah, sign grow. [00:43:04] Speaker B: Yeah, that's. My son and stepson are both 20. And it's been very interesting over the last couple of years to see my husband very intentionally at points, not intervene or intervene at points, to sort of like shove them out the door a little bit faster than. Than they're wanting, or to give over responsibility to them in ways that show as a man, because it would be different for me to do it to have their dad tell them, I need you to do this. I used to do this thing, but now I need you to do this and I trust you and you're going to do a great job. And obviously he's there if they run into struggles or they have questions or it hasn't worked out quite, quite, you know, the way that they expected to. He's there with wisdom, but seeing him sort of by those actions and they're, they're very, they're only two weeks apart in age. They're very radically different personalities. But he's figured out with each of them how to sort of convey his approval as a man to them as men. And he's found a way to maintain his authority as father in our home, but to, to raise them up and to treat them not, not as peers. I don't want to use the word peer because he's always going to be their dad, but there's just an acknowledgment of them as men where they're sort of shoulder to shoulder on a lot of things. Like he chooses where his authority still needs to, to, to be used and he chooses the places where they get to step out on their own in a very interesting way. It's really, it's beautiful to see and I'm aware as a wife and a mom how that coming from him is very different for them than a lot of those things that, that I might try to do. You know, as we're sort of wrapping this up, I just, I'm appreciating Josh. I keep thinking of the reliance that we had for such a long time on the phrase like a two parent household. And then the, the idea of like, and, and any two will do. So whether it's two moms or two dads. [00:45:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:35] Speaker B: You know, there's, there's this big push to. As long as there are just two adults in the home and there's one that's. [00:45:43] Speaker A: That, that that model isn't, doesn't, isn't working. [00:45:46] Speaker B: It's not working. It's not working. Yeah. And what you're describing, Josh, I think just highlights in a beautiful way the superiority of God's design. It's not that any two will do like women bring something to the table. Your wife is going to see your daughter in ways that you can't. And yet you're going to protect your daughter and your sons from the overindulgence that may cut. You know, there's, there's this beautiful balance that comes between, between the two. A male and a female, a mom and a dad in the home, doing these things and balancing each other out like there's, there's nothing better because God designed it that way. And I love the way that you've highlighted some of that. I'm really looking forward to your talk. [00:46:36] Speaker C: Wonderful. [00:46:37] Speaker A: Indeed. Yeah. [00:46:39] Speaker C: And you know, it's. How gloriously ordinary is all this we're talking about? I mean, it's almost like God loves us and wants us to do well. [00:46:47] Speaker A: Right, Right. [00:46:50] Speaker C: And it's ordinary things. [00:46:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:53] Speaker B: And isn't it. Aren't those the times in the ordinary, though? Like sometimes even in the chaos with kids running around, those are the times when you sit back and you're like, man, life is gorgeous. This is amazing. You know? Yeah. It's normal. It's not, it's not the Bentley and the five star hotel. It's just this beautiful thing called family. So awesome. All right. Well, Joshua, do you have any other questions for Josh? [00:47:26] Speaker A: Nope. Nope. I had some questions. I think that, that, that stepped into a bit of pragmatism and I think we'll say some of those kind of questions more for the upcoming event next week. So if you would like the rest kind of questions be asked, you need to register. [00:47:46] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Well. And so to speak to that. So, yes, June 5th and 6th is Friday evening and Saturday from morning until late afternoon at King's Church in Columbia, South Carolina. Although there's a suburb whose name I forget all the time. What is it? [00:48:04] Speaker A: Irma. [00:48:05] Speaker B: Irmo. Irma, South Carolina. You can go to TrumpExchange.com to register and we would really plead with you to consider registering ahead of time. That helps us with, with planning and getting things set up. But I think what you just said, Joshua. Yeah, there's going to be an opportunity for not just hearing you ask questions, but to get to have panel discussion to participate in multiple times throughout these sessions where you will get to ask your own questions of application and be able to share your own thoughts during these discussions. So I think that everyone who attends is going to benefit and grow and experience beautiful fellowship. It's $50. That includes breakfast and lunch as well as we have some gifts that we're pretty putting together for you guys. There are two books that are going to be made available. So please do register and we hope to see you at this event. And one final request, I would just ask anyone, especially those farmers out there who I'm hoping to meet when I'm in South Carolina next week if you haven't already done. So please do like subscribe and share this podcast in whatever medium that you're listening. If you do that and if you leave substantive comments, if you ask questions on those platforms, that helps us get over the algorithm. It helps us make sure that this content gets into other people's hands. And we really do rely on and need that help. So without further ado, I think that that's the end of this episode. And we thank you for joining us and listening today. And, Josh, thanks so much for showing up at Joshua's house. [00:49:48] Speaker C: It was my pleasure.