Exchanging the truth of God for the Lie: Feminism

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign [00:00:04] Speaker B: Exchange Podcast. This is a unique program where we have conversations about worldview all through the lens of oneism and two ism. This lens is based on Romans 1:25. We have exchanged the truth of God for the lie, worship and serve creation rather than the Creator who is blessed forevermore. Amen. I'm your host, Joshua Gila with Mary Weller. Mary, good. [00:00:26] Speaker C: Hello. [00:00:27] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:00:28] Speaker B: And we have a dear friend of ours, Rosaria Butterfield, back on the program. Rosaria, it's good to have you. [00:00:35] Speaker A: You're not going to get rid of me now, Josh. So the pack is back. [00:00:43] Speaker B: We are in preparation for the upcoming Peter Jones lectures. And this is a mini think tank that's located in Columbia, South Carolina, on June 5th through the 6th this year. And at a first glance, the subject or the of of God and theology and sex doesn't seem like a there's a good pairing there. They may stand at opposite ends of the value spectrum. God, who is spirit, he is infinite, eternal, unchangeable in his being and his wisdom and his power, holiness, justice, goodness and truth. And then in contrast, there's, well, there's sex. It's created. It's in its essence, it's raw, it's material. And maybe the two would never come together. Well, this event here is to look at the subject of God and sex and how should Christians understand sexuality. And so we have our and are inviting you, our listeners, to come and join us with Dr. Rosaria Butterfield, Dr. Peter Jones, Mary Weller, my pastor Josh Smith and myself who will be hosting this event here in Columbia, South Carolina. It's at 500 Street south or Andrews Road. And the charge is for $50. And you can register [email protected] that covers the event as well as it does cover for a meal ticket. And we would love to see you there. We hope to see you there. Old friends and new friends, please come and bring your friends with you. This particular podcast, we are going to jump in as we typically do with our when in preparation for our think tanks, is we invite our speakers to kind of give a preliminary look into what their talk is about. And so we've invited Dr. Rosario Butterfield to talk on the subject of feminism in preparation for it. You know, I was reviewing Dr. Butterfield's book, Five Lies of Our Anti Christian Age, and one of the things that struck me in feminism, it's something that didn't just happen in the 1960s. Typically when you look at moves of movements of feminism and you look at the various Waves. It begins somewhere in the late 1950s or 1960s. But when I was reading your book, Rosario, you actually mentioned that it happened centuries prior. And I'd love for you to share a little bit of the history of the movements and various movements of feminism. [00:03:12] Speaker A: Absolutely. You want me just to jump right in here? [00:03:15] Speaker B: Jump in. [00:03:16] Speaker A: All right, all right. Well, first of all, I'm going to be speaking about this not so much as a scholar, but really as a casualty. So worldviews have consequences and bad ones make casualties. And my readers might be more alert to the fact that I had spent years as a. As a lesbian, and that was a major, obviously, sin that needed to be repented of and forsaken. But I didn't. There are many ways to arrive at the sin of lesbianism. And for me, it was very much the gateway, was very much my feminist worldview. And so I am a 19th century scholar, and my scholarship hovered around Mary Wollstonecraft, who was 18th century, but she was the mother of Mary Shelley, the author of Frankenstein and the, at one point, you know, illegitimate lover and then wife of Percy Shelley as part of the Shelley circle. And so that was a. You know, the 19th century had a constellation of worldviews that opposed. Opposed Christianity and specifically opposed the created order. And so early, early on, we see this. Now, what's really interesting to me, you know, so I would say most historians would maybe mark Mary Wollstonecraft's the Vindication of the right of woman, 1792, as in some ways, the first kind of watershed feminist book. And it was a very radical book. It was a radical book at the time. It's probably still a radical book. But here's what's true about Mary Wollstonecraft. She was a mother. She was the mother of Mary who had become Mary Shelley, and she was the mother of another daughter. So it was not really until American feminism that feminism became associated with the rejection of the female body, specifically the rejection of motherhood. And it's a very interesting moment when you think about it. You know, there are moments in history when an idea about anthropology comes into being right. For those of us who have been working with truth exchange and loving what Peter Jones does and hovering around these issues. For many of us, we've been talking about transgenderism and homosexuality, and we've talked about how the. The birth of the trans child is just an. An invention of an evil age. You can't. You. You can't have it without an evil worldview because it is creationally impossible. It is just creationally impossible. Well, an interesting. You know, when you think about how worldview sometimes works, like a. Like a wedge, there's a little bit of a knife tip, and then, you know, the wedge goes this way and the angle comes this way. And there's lots of things that stand in that triangle beyond the tip. Well, feminism is the knife's edge, and the whole LGBTQ spectrum is what's in that triangle, specifically in American feminism. American feminism, it was the first time in the history of the world that the idea that you could and should be a woman married to a career and despising that you have a body that creates life. And what's very interesting to me is that, you know, feminism has always, on the American side of things, it's always had kind of a good vibe, you know, where, you know, feminism. For Mary Wollstonecraft, you could get guillotined for having a copy of the Vindication of Rights of Women on your. On your person. Okay. Like, you weren't care. You know, you'd put a brown paper bag around the covers, right? But with feminism, early feminism, right? I'm thinking about, is it 1820? Susan B. Anthony, you know, very much tied feminism to the temperance movement, and it made it look like feminism is good for the church in the world. Just a bunch of grownups here. The grownups have entered into the room. The drunks are getting out. Feminism tied itself to that. But what's very, very interesting is that it was 1916 that Margaret Sanger came on the scene, and that was 1916. Is that the date of the first Planned Parenthood in America? And you don't get the 19th Amendment until years later, right? The 19th Amendment's 1920. And so two things. American feminism is associated with the birth of a new kind of woman, the woman who is married to her career. In fact, American feminists were almost all single, unmarried, childless women. And. And so this idea that you could do more without children, these children are holding you back. These. These husbands and their patriarchal notions are. Are. Are squelching your. Your authority and your power. And what did that lead immediately to? The first Planned Parenthood. So. So the people who want to say, you know, now here, you know, hundreds. Right. Years later, want to say, well, actually, what are you talking about, Rosaria? Feminism is good for the church in the world. Without feminism, you wouldn't have women who are educated, and you wouldn't have the right to vote. That is a total miscue of its history, because before you had the right to vote, you had the right to kill your children. Yeah. [00:09:30] Speaker B: The other thing I hear is we'll look at the modern day woman. We have women who are CEOs of Fortune 500 businesses. We have women advancing in career. Isn't this a good thing? Isn't this a byproduct of Christendom? [00:09:49] Speaker A: And I would. I'm going to, I'm going to try to be so good on this podcast and not name names. You have no idea. I'm really going to just. You guys are going to think I am dyke. I've moved to decaffeinated coffee, which I haven't. But I was recently at a conference. So it isn't just the world that says that. The church says that. The church says. I was at a conference where a well known speaker and actually someone I consider a great guy and a friend, you know, lamented that we just don't have enough evangelical women leading, you know, Fortune 500 corporations, you know, to which all God's people say, huh. So I'll try to tackle both in this answer. [00:10:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:39] Speaker A: And actually, let me add one more thing to it if I can, just to bring the point home to maybe some younger people who are like, who cares? I was speaking at a very well known conservative Christian college. It's the kind of college you'd send your kids to. I don't have any concerns with the college. One of the first questions I got in an open Q and A was this from a young woman. I'm not called to be a wife and a mother, but I am called to be an astronaut. Why is that a problem? Okay, so I want to bring all of these things to bear in my [00:11:22] Speaker B: answer because it seems like the telos, that's, that's kind of a reoccurring issue in the whole feminism, is it? It, it divorces itself from the toss of what the woman body does, but yet wants to claim some sort of radical autonomy, but doesn't want to take ownership for. It's just, it's a weird contradiction. [00:11:46] Speaker A: And I would say it depends upon who's promoting it. I would say if there are men promoting wanting more women in, you know, as, you know, presidents of Fortune 500 companies, or even, I dare might add, more women at plenary speakers at large conferences. Not ours. Ours isn't a large conference. But you know what I mean? I mean, like, I can't tell you how many times I will look at a speaking invitation and see, oh, I'm, I'm going to be the affirmative action hire and the stooge all at once. What an awesome opportunity. However, shall I. Thank you. But I think what we need to remember is that the Creation ordinance, and we see this in our Bible. We see this in. You know, I'm so. I am more and more compelled to, you know, to want to scream from the rooftops that the book of Genesis is history. It's history. And we see in the very beginning the most beautiful historical statement about identity. And it's in Genesis 1:26 to 28. Then God said, let us make man in our image after our likeness, and let them have dominion, right? So God created man in his own image, in the image of God. He created him. Male and female. He created them, and God blessed them. And God said to them, be fruitful and multiply. Okay, that is not only a beautiful statement about who we are, and it's also not just a beautiful statement that, that. That provides the boundaries we need to thrive under personhood. Right? Because who we are is either male or female. It's binary. It's two. It's not. I think I checked. Dr. Google says there are 72 options this morning for that. But I mean, there aren't there two. And that's a very powerful statement. That means there's no such thing as a trans child. There's no such thing as. As a gay man. There's a man, and that man who thinks he's gay is a man with a sin pattern that he's called to mortify and that Jesus is willing to save him from, deliver him from. But there are two. So that is really powerful. But it's also an ordinance. And it's an ordinance that rests on five matters. And we as Christians need to understand this for ourselves in order to understand how feminism as a worldview has. Has really produced a kind of, I don't know, just a real snake pit, right? So the first is that God's design for male and female is authoritative. Okay? There's a gender binary, and God created sex, the difference in sexes, with the expectation that there are different patterns that come from there. Now what feminism wants to do is separate that. Feminism wants to say, you can have biological sex, but you can't have those patterns of responsibility, right? You can have sex, but sex and sexuality are different. And that is not true. And it's interesting to me, and I know, Mary, you're going to talk about this, so I don't want to hoard it on you, but it's interesting to me that the. The very foundational error of feminism that separates sex from sexuality or sex from gender is the very thing that is used to destroy it. Because what transgenderism does is say, well, I don't like sex at all. We'll just go with gender. And that'll just be my perceived gender. [00:15:54] Speaker C: Yes. [00:15:55] Speaker A: So the first is God's design for male and female is authoritative. The second is that it's noble and it's relational. It's absolutely beautiful. We see this in First Corinthians 11, where we learn that is not independent of man or man of woman. We learn this when we realize that woman is the glory of man. Right. And that's also first Corinthians. And so these are very powerful things. And so it is noble, it's relational. It's one of the highest honors you could be given, and God gives it to you at your very birth, at your very creation. The third is that the creation ordinance is steadfast and it's permanent. A gender binary posits that humanity is a single binary category. Male or female, and male and female created by God on earth will be male and female in heaven and in the new Jerusalem, even your soul is male or female. When I've been at school board meetings and you talk to the parents who have just castrated their 15 year old son, there are no people on planet earth who are more greatly in need of the gospel. But also, I would say the detransitioners who have come to Christ have [00:17:29] Speaker C: so [00:17:29] Speaker A: much joy in the eschatological reality that they can't mock God. Because even if they can't rectify the mutilation they've done to their bodies here on earth, in the new heavens and the new earth and the new Jerusalem, they will be the man they were meant to be. They will be the woman they were meant to be. That's a powerful statement of the eternality and the permanence of male and female. But fourth, the creation ordinance reveals the jobs that God has given to Adam and to Eve. And these are jobs before the fall. So these are good jobs. And those jobs are marriage and work. And what that means is that every single human being is called to marriage and work. Now, will we all be married? No. Is it a sin to be single? No. You can be single to the glory of God for sure. [00:18:33] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:18:35] Speaker A: Is it a sin to be infertile? No. But the closer you live to the creation ordinance, the closer you're living to the call that God has made every human being. Now, the reason I sort of like gave you a funny face or. I don't know, it looks like it always Looks like I'm giving a funny face when I'm on. You know. You know when I said single is because there's a particular way that singleness has been misapplied sinfully. And that's in the celibate gay Christian movement where we have been told, oh, you know, Josh, I'm, I am same sex. I experience same sex attraction, therefore I'm called to singleness. I'm so grateful that when I came to the Lord 27 years ago, nobody offered such ridiculous heresy to me. Because. Because if you experience same sex attraction, you're called repentance. It's the 10th Commandment. Yes, you're called to repentance, not to singleness. Our Westminster larger catechism, in fact, would record that in the violations of the seventh commandment as entangling vows of celibacy. And so they are. So to my dear young 18 year old who feels confident that she can tell me in front of a thousand people at a microphone that she's not called to be a wife and a mother, I would say I disagree. Yeah, I think that that is a general universal call. Yeah. Universal call. [00:20:08] Speaker C: It seems that the, the celibate gay movement resulting in a call to celibacy because you have same sex desire is the same thing that this young, young woman was misunderstanding and communicating as truth, which is that your sinful desires define your, your calling rather than your body and soul, which is male or female defining your call. [00:20:34] Speaker A: Right. [00:20:35] Speaker C: So it's inherently rejecting the Creator's authoritative word over who he has meant you to be. [00:20:43] Speaker A: Right. And I would say both run in fear. Yeah. Because I can tap into that fear in a nanosecond. Both run in fear. The struggler, the homosexual, the person with homosexual desires really does fear. How in the world this is going to change. And, and unfortunately, instead of, instead of letting a person really feel that fear and say, you've got to take it to the Lord, and everybody has something like that. Everybody has a sin pattern that we know if it was unleashed in the world, it would destroy everything we love right now, whether it's rage or anger or lust. So we must go to the Lord. That's the only place that we can go. And yet that's the place that often people are afraid to go. And for young women, it's a fear of, you know, I'm going to use the word patriarchy. I'm thinking of it. Terms in biblical patriarchy, which we'll probably get into with some definitions, but it's a fear that I am not Safe, unless I am autonomous. And just the opposite is true because we're never really autonomous, autonomous. And then the fifth, you know, really rule of the creation ordinance that we can pull out of these three verses is that it shows us that the seeds of the gospel are in the garden. [00:22:14] Speaker B: Yes. [00:22:15] Speaker A: Okay. No, you know, I think the way Richard Gaffin puts it in his. The title of his pamphlet is really good. No. No Adam, no gospel. [00:22:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:23] Speaker A: Okay. Like, you don't. [00:22:24] Speaker B: That's right. [00:22:25] Speaker A: You can't. The law and the gospel are different, but they have the same friends and the same enemies. And so those five things together create a situation where in all of these anecdotes, we can give a biblical response. And in giving a biblical response, we can put the hand of the Savior into the hand of the. Of the. I would say the fearful Christian. Okay. To. To the young woman who says, I'm not called. We get to. To be a wife and a mother. We get to say, then. Then you need to repent, sweetheart. Dear one, dear daughter. Which, you know, I could be talking to myself here. Right. You need. You need to repent because you can't exempt yourself from a universal calling right now. You might not get married, but you can't tell me you're not called to that. So you don't need to repent for wanting to be an astronaut or whatever you want to be. I mean, you and your. Your future husband would need to work that out. [00:23:32] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:23:33] Speaker A: So the sin part is not in desiring to be. To do something in the world that you love and that you value and that you have giftings for, unless that interferes with your husband and your children. [00:23:48] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:23:48] Speaker A: The sin is in exempting yourself from a universal call. The problem with the idea that we need more women CEOs of, you know, Fortune 500 companies is that we don't need more stooges and affirmative action hires. We just don't. And we. I, you know, many of us who have been in positions of power who have left that to be, you know, wives and mothers, have not regretted that in a minute. I mean, I left a tenured post at a Tier 1 research university to marry a church planter, where my first job, Lord's Day morning, was cleaning toilets in the community center. And that's after open men's basketball on a Saturday night. Night. Okay. You know that Psalm 84. I'd rather be a doorkeeper in the house of the Lord. I mean, and I did have people, people who loved me, who feared for what I was doing, come to Me and say, you know, you're never going to write a book again. And you know what's really interesting? That's not true. [00:25:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:25:07] Speaker B: Because strength and honor are yours. [00:25:09] Speaker A: I married a man who wants me to write books after I clean toilets. I mean, you know, like, we're in it together, right? You're not writing books, Lars A Morning. You're setting up. You know, you're setting up folding chairs and putting out salters and making sure the toilets are clean. [00:25:26] Speaker C: That's so crazy. I married a man who wants me to write articles after I do the dishes and make sure I know what the menu is for the week. [00:25:33] Speaker A: And that. So beautiful. It's so helpful. But I do think we need to address the core issue, and that's. The core issue is the fear that these feelings I have will never change or this loneliness I have will never go away. I mean, one of the things I'm seeing. I mean, we're all seeing a rise in pornography for young women. We're seeing a huge jump in LGBTQ identification for Gen Z women, kind of unbelievably. But we're also seeing this steady growth in women in their 30s, 40s, and 50s who have never shown any inclination for lesbianism, finding themselves in throuples or in lesbian relationships. And it's. It's crushing loneliness. It's. It's. And so. So these are real people with real situations, and their parents love them and pray for them. And there's a difference, I think, and I know you all do, too, between humanizing the fact that sin makes you suffer. I mean, first it's that you sin. Your sin causes your suffering. But then there is real suffering. There is real suffering. Humanizing that is not normalizing the sin that you're clinging to. And so we need to help. But the particular way that feminism has always kind of presented itself, even in conservative Christian colleges as well. That's how you have the right to vote and have a job, which is absurd. I mean, you have to really not be a good reader of the Old Testament to say that. [00:27:29] Speaker C: Yeah. I think the Proverbs 31 woman would like a word. [00:27:33] Speaker A: Would like a word with you. Yeah, absolutely. [00:27:36] Speaker C: Well, it's interesting, Rosaria, to go all the way back to Mary Shelley and. And correct me, because I am not. I'm not a scholar of these things. [00:27:46] Speaker A: Things. [00:27:46] Speaker C: But if I understand correctly, even there, you know, here she is, she's the daughter of a woman who. Who writes this tome on feminism, and then she ends up finding acceptable living in this free Love environment with her. First her lover, then kind of her husband. She loses a child, but. And there's a great sorrow that's involved in that. But he can't see it for her because he does not love her. He loves this ideology, for lack of a better word, this. This sin that he's involved himself in and that then she's embraced. And so even there in the earlier forms of feminism, it immediately resulted in unhooking yourself from the idea of marriage, having a husband to look after you as you raise your children. And so it seems like the seeds of it were already there and apparent before it ever got to this unhooking from your biology in the way that we did in the American feminist movement. [00:28:51] Speaker A: Absolutely. Bad worldviews will always betray you. And Mary Shelley's life is a fascinating exposition of that. So she and Percy Shelley. Percy Shelley was a poet. He had just been kicked out of Oxford for writing a pamphlet about atheism. And he had attached himself to William Godwin, who is Mary Shelley's father, who was a philosopher. And. And he was, you know, there in the house where all the. All the dialogue was taking place. And young Mary Shelley, at 16, you know, caught his eye. They run off together. Meanwhile, his legitimate wife, Harriet, is eight months pregnant. [00:29:32] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:29:33] Speaker A: And she drowns herself and her unborn baby in response to now being, you know, abandoned, bereft of. Yeah, yeah. And so Mary Shelley has to live with that, then she lives with. She had five pregnancies, almost died multiple times. It was absolutely agonizing. And so much of this is in her novel Frankenstein, which she wrote at the age of 18, which is astounding. She wrote it, of course, under the name that all women used in the 19th century who were going to write a scandalous novel. That name was anonymous, but it had so much of the Shelley circle in it that people just presumed Percy Shelley had written it. But one of the most fascinating moments in Mary Shelley's Frankenstein is at the very end, the creature who was created without a soul in a laboratory by a bachelor. He offers a soliloquy at the end. It's the first time in the English language the word abortion is used as a. As a noun, really. He says, I, the miserable, am an abortion. [00:30:48] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:30:49] Speaker A: So present tense, verb, noun, usually used as a verb. [00:30:54] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:30:54] Speaker A: To show just the depth of agony in being a created being, not made in the image of God. Because the other thing about the creature is he had an amazing reading list. He had a reading list. Those of us who, you know, are in the classical school movement were like, oh, that's our reading list. And it didn't give him the soul that bears the image of God. [00:31:25] Speaker C: Right. [00:31:26] Speaker A: That he wanted. The reading list made him desire that which he could never have. [00:31:32] Speaker C: Right. [00:31:34] Speaker A: So it's a fascinating exposition of that. And, you know, my hope is that, because I realize we're all being real nerdy here, we're like, just getting. We're just getting all nerded out here. And I hope that. That the people who are coming to this conference realize that part of what we're trying to do is to show you that these ideas are not just kind of bad facts. Like, you got the math lesson wrong. We're going to make it right for you. No, these are ideas that are in the DNA of American culture. [00:32:05] Speaker C: Yes. [00:32:06] Speaker A: Now, understanding that can help us not only untangle that, but it can also help us better love better and better rescue our prodigal children. [00:32:20] Speaker C: Yes, yes. [00:32:22] Speaker B: You mentioned the issue of patriarchy. We have to touch on that because there is a. There is a Christian worldview that is patriarchal. There's a biblical patriarchy. I believe in God the Father. [00:32:38] Speaker A: Right. [00:32:38] Speaker B: We confess at our church, with the universal church throughout time, but yet there's. There's a patriarchy that feminism attacks. And is it only the biblical patriarchy? Is there a type of patriarchy that we would be shoulder to shoulder with feminists? And then last I know, this is a bit of a list. Is there an itch that feminism scratches that Christians or the church needs to pay attention to? [00:33:07] Speaker A: Oh, gosh. Okay. And we've got, like, three more hours. I know, right? We've got. Well, you know, the first is, is that feminism seeks to right the wrong of sin apart from the saving work of the Lord Jesus Christ. So in. In the Lord Jesus Christ, we who are saved are. Our. Our guilt is removed by the blood of Christ. But then through the resurrection of Christ, we are given the freedom to break the bondage, our sin patterns. Sometimes Christians like to get halfway across that. That intersection, but you got to get all the way through because you don't want to live like somebody who has no resurrection power to break the bonds of your sin. So what feminism wants to do is they want to say, no, men sin in their rage and abuse of power. And. And that's just a fact. And we need. We need a method to control that, that we can have. And so for many feminists, myself included, and back in the day, my response was, I'm going to exempt myself from this male, female, binary I'm going to exempt myself from this creation ordinance. I am going to be autonomous. And so that's the sin of feminism. And it is a sin. It's in, it's, it's in trying to be more merciful than God. [00:34:55] Speaker C: Yes. [00:34:56] Speaker A: All right. We don't want abusive husbands. Those abusive husbands are going to meet the wrath of God in an eternal conscious torment of hell. They, they need the saving work of Jesus Christ and the bondage breaking, resurrection work of Jesus Christ. [00:35:18] Speaker C: Yes. [00:35:18] Speaker A: And before that happens though, you're like, okay, Rosario, what about the woman? The only safe place for a woman who is in any domestic violence situation is to be a member of a Bible believing church. [00:35:33] Speaker C: Amen. [00:35:34] Speaker A: Because you have elders who can protect you from your husband in a way that is powerfully, that, that is powerful and it is decent and it is good and it can lead, it can take you all the way to safety. So, so if there's an itch that, you know, I think it's just the, it's the age old itch of, of our lack of, of trust in God. Our, our fear of putting our trust in elders of a church who are indeed mere men. Right. And so we somehow think that if we just go rogue and do it ourself, it'll work out. Only God loves us more than to leave us with that kind of a disastrous plan. [00:36:40] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:36:41] Speaker A: Because when's the last time autonomy proved itself to be anything but a delusion? [00:36:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:50] Speaker A: We are never autonomous. We're not autonomous from each other. We're certainly not autonomous from providence or sovereignty. We cannot create our own world. We cannot force the hand of God. It is a scary thing for men and women. And that is why we throw ourselves at the feet of Jesus. [00:37:16] Speaker B: That's powerful. And when I read that in your book about the five lies about the church and being under submission to the elders, because elders can get involved, contacting the magistrate and having the magistrate step in to take care of the abusive husband and then the keys which are in the hands of the church to discipline such a man for that transaction. I mean, it's just a very powerful picture and a wonderful shepherding picture of Christ and his church and him protecting is, it's wonderful. So let's talk about patriarchy then. Because what I'm hearing from, from when I look at feminism, feminist movement is, well, this just feeds into the male construct and the control of man and, and, and their rule and reign and just trying to put women under their thumb, under submission. And that's bad. [00:38:13] Speaker A: Well, first of all the submission question for a woman is to two things, right? If you are married, you are submitted to your husband. You're not submitted to the UPS driver that just dropped a package off at my door. He's a big burly guy, I just saw him. I wonder what my kids ordered. But you know what? I'm not submitted to him. So the first is just to actually know the boundaries. The second is being submitted to godly men in the church is your protection. It's also your duty. The book of Hebrews tells us that. And it is, it is, it is your safety. Because God is going to work through the elders in the church in the way he's not going to work through me. So if I want wisdom, if I want security, if I want protection, if I want discernment, if I want a godly rebuke in his, in his time of need, if I want, you know, all of that, I better pray for and submit to my elders because that email is not going to come to me apart from them. So knowing the boundaries I think is really helpful. And the second, I would add to that. Marry the right husband. If you're afraid of submitting to a man, make sure you're marrying the right husband. Right? Have good premarital counsel. Make sure you're thinking through these things. But again, what humbles you won't hurt you, but what fills you with pride will. But finally, a woman's submission to her elders in the church or to her husband is a paradigm of how the world. And you know what? You can kick against the goat of reality all you want to, but it's reality. And so the question really has to come down not to whether men are going to be in charge, but which men are going to be in charge. Do you want godly men leading the church to be in charge or do you want drag queens gyrating before 5 year olds at the library? Because men will be in charge. The particular way that men and women's sports has become so outrageously controversial, like, who would have thought, who saw that one coming, other than maybe, you know, Satan himself? So no, sort of those three reasons. You want to make sure that you are cultivating biblical patriarchy. Now, there's been a war in the church about the term biblical patriarchy or complementarianism. I'll tell you what, Denny Burke has a great new book out called Mere Complementarianism. I was convinced to never like the term ever, because I don't like any term that came out of the 1970s. I also don't like bell bottoms. You know what I mean? I mean, I'm just saying. But I like his. I know, I know. I think Josh might have some pictures. I don't know if he's going to bring them out at the conference. He just brings that out for friends. See, now I'm outing you, Josh. But it's a very good book, and it really. It forced me to realize that as Christians, we can. We don't have to argue about this. So my, My actual. My preference for the word biblical patriarchy is that I'm. I'm working under the assumption that it's a biblical word, that we have the patriarchs, you know, that it's a word I can find. My OED tells me it's a lot older than complementarianism, which is 1972. But, you know, I. I am not going to die on that hill. I don't think it's. Adeni makes a really good case for how some of the soft complementarianism that has just really become egalitarianism wasn't supposed to be part of the package anyway, so it was very helpful to me. But ultimately, we need to. We need to fear God, not man. And that includes fearing our own limitations. And I think feminism has overreached into God's terrain because of that fear. [00:42:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:55] Speaker C: I love the picture that you draw of what it looks like for a woman who is a Christian to live within [00:43:06] Speaker A: the. [00:43:08] Speaker C: The beautiful boundary lines of. Of biblical patriarchy that we are called to submit to a man, but we are not called to submit to a man in sin. So if he is ordering you to sin, then you go to the men within your church who will protect you and speak to him because he. He too is called to submission. [00:43:32] Speaker A: Right. [00:43:32] Speaker C: And I think this is something that the idea of feminism and, and even the versions of like, quote, unquote, heavy, heavy, quote, unquote, biblical feminism forgets, is that. No. The Bible is very clear that all of us are under submission. [00:43:48] Speaker B: Yes. [00:43:48] Speaker C: Right. So being able to go, if. If you have married a man and you have involved yourself in a biblically based church where you have men in authority to whom you can go, that is a protection for you. It's not all the guys lined up to help your husband lord it over you. Rather, it is godly men who collectively work together to rebuke your husband, who hopefully will hear that, rebuke and repent, but if he does not, then to carry you to places of safety under their protection. And then, you know, if, God forbid, you're in a situation where you do end up divorced, you do end up a single mom. And I speak as one who ended up in that place because of her own bad choices. Right. Thank God that he led me to a place where then I was under the biblical authority of men. So that when I had to be carried out of that situation with my children, they were looking after me, they were watching over me. They were making sure that there was food on my table. They were going and seeking to speak to my husband at the time, seeking to reconcile us. And when that reconciliation could not happen, to love me, to be the hands of feet, of cr. Of Christ, ministering to my family during that time of need, had I followed a feminist path of, like, this is awful. I'm getting away from here. I'm checking this man and I'm checking everyone else, I would have been set out on the outside with no help, with no one who could look after us, no one who could love us in the way that God has ordained. And so I take that admonition to young women, to all women, very personally, because I am the product and the. The grateful recipient of that grace and that ministry that God has called us to, too. And when we forget that that's available to us, we think that feminism is the answer. [00:45:55] Speaker A: Right. And can I go? [00:45:58] Speaker C: Yes. [00:45:58] Speaker A: Yeah. And I would just add one more thing that introduces another word that I think we should put on the table when we talk about feminism. And that word is trauma. [00:46:07] Speaker C: Yes. [00:46:08] Speaker A: And what. And I don't take that lightly. I'm not dismissing that. Being divorced, being raped, being these. I'm not divorced. I'm not suggesting that those are not traumatic events. But one thing we need to remember, two people experiencing the same assault. Why do they experience it differently? I mean, Lord Jesus Christ experienced a great deal of trauma. [00:46:37] Speaker C: Yes. [00:46:38] Speaker A: Mary Magdalene experience experienced a great deal of trauma. So why do two people in the same life experience experience it differently? And the answer is because our sinful flesh needs help in dealing with trauma in a good and godly way. [00:46:57] Speaker C: Yes. [00:46:57] Speaker A: And we will never do that on our own. [00:47:00] Speaker C: No. [00:47:01] Speaker A: Because on our own, left to ourselves, our flesh defends itself. It defends its right to sin. It defends its right to. To survive. It's a. You know, the Galatians 5:17 says, There's a war in us between the flesh and the spirit. That war doesn't go away because you were raped. That war doesn't go away because you were divorced. That war actually amps up. [00:47:21] Speaker C: Yes. [00:47:21] Speaker A: And so how do you not have a sinful response to sin after you've been assaulted. Need your elders. [00:47:30] Speaker C: Yes. [00:47:30] Speaker A: Surrounding you. Of course, you need the Lord Jesus Christ. But this is not a theoretical. I mean, this is. There are, as you said, Mary, there's still food that needs to be put on a table. [00:47:41] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:47:42] Speaker A: There's a material side to the application of what union with Christ gives you. [00:47:48] Speaker C: Yes. [00:47:48] Speaker A: That comes through the elders and it. And it will not come through the world. And if it does come through the world, you will learn all the wrong lessons from that. So even if you survive, even if you go and you end up as a CEO of a Fortune 500 company and you now have enough money to, you know, I don't know, pay for daycare or whatever. [00:48:11] Speaker C: Right. [00:48:11] Speaker A: You're. You still have a soul. [00:48:13] Speaker C: Yes. [00:48:14] Speaker A: And you still have that really just this difficult entanglement where you have to disentangle what it means to be sinned against from what it means to be a sinner in response. [00:48:30] Speaker C: Yeah. And you can only ever do that within the world. It always comes with. We never are truly disentangled. This whole idea of entanglement, like you said, autonomy, it's not a. It's not a real thing. You're cast into the court system, you're cast into the welfare system. You know, people who may be helping you, but it's with stuff, strings attached, because they're not recipients of grace themselves or they don't. They don't understand that idea. And so your entanglements just change. [00:48:59] Speaker A: Right. [00:49:00] Speaker C: And. [00:49:01] Speaker A: Right. And your children, too. I mean, what I was thinking about when we were talking about feminism earlier is that at every stage of a woman's life, feminism has the opportunity to kind of. Kind of rip you from the Lord. Right. So the stage of it. And when I think of stages, I think of, you know, daughter, you know, sister, mother, matriarch. Yeah. Now, I don't add singleness to there because I don't think singleness is actually a biblical role. I think it's just a reality. I mean. Yes. You know, so I don't. So I'm not. And, you know, you can be all those things actually and be single because you will be a mother in Israel. If you're in the church, you will be mothering these children who are, you know, especially in a Presbyterian church, you have just. You have just taken back to. You have taken vows at their baptism along with their parents. So. So I would. I would say this is, you know, this is not. But you. You think about each of those stages in a role's life in a Woman's life could. It could be kind of snatched. The joy of it can be snatched. Snatched from you through the sinful worldview of feminism. So I think for a number of women, I think, myself included, I've had to repent of the sin of believing that there's a kind of way to soft pedal feminism and that there's a little bit of feminism that's good for the church in the world. And I've just had to say no. If the fruit's bad, the root's bad. [00:50:38] Speaker B: Right? Yeah, yeah. I, as you ladies were speaking, I was reminded of the psalm. The lions have fallen for me in beautiful places. I have a wonderful inheritance from the Lord. [00:50:51] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:50:51] Speaker B: And Rosario for, for the young lady or even elderly lady who has been, who's bought into the feminist worldview, maybe specifically for the younger lady who's been really has. That has been their whole structure. They were. Does the, the proverbial fish know that it's wet? Right. How do I, how do I get out of this kind of thinking? Or how when I come to the Bible, I'm coming at it always with this kind of feminist lens and I'm trying to reject the patriarchal view. What kind of help, what kind of resource, what do we point them to, to, to aid them out of that? [00:51:30] Speaker A: For the. [00:51:30] Speaker B: Pull them from the dunghill. [00:51:32] Speaker A: Right, right. Well, I'm just talking to myself, Josh. I don't know. Is that okay? Because, I mean, you're absolutely right. But what I would say is there are. I would give you two very practical bits of advice. I mean, if I were, if I were discipling you, let's say, let's say you and I have a discipling relationship in my church, I would give you two very practical pieces of advice. First, I would suggest that you spend way more time in the word of God than you do on anything else, especially Instagram, Twitter, you know, like that is the devil's den people, in case you have not noticed. And so how would you do that? I would strongly recommend. There's a wonderful series of Bible studies that Lydia Brownback has put together. They're called the Flourish Bible Studies. The, the Flourish Bible Study movement really is to suggest that you need more Bible and less feeling in how you're thinking through this. And one of the things Lydia says in these Bible studies is you need to marinate in the word of God. And so I would hand you the Flourish Bible study on Philippians because that, that the book of Philippians, how to live for God, or I might Hand you the flourish Bible study on first and Second Peter. Because that's about how to live as exiles in a new land and not coddle yourself. Right. You know, Peter doesn't come in and say, oh, poor you. He's like, oh, let's get a grip. Okay. Let me tell you. So. So I would hand you either one of those books and I'd say, let's go start on Tuesday. Okay. That would be one. The other thing I would want to make sure you have is a really good study Bible, not a. Not a sloppy one. I mean, I think, you know, I'm not seminary trained. I just, you know, I just read books. So I just. And I read a lot of books. But. But I have always benefited from a good study Bible. And I have. I have a stack of good study Bibles. The Reformation Heritage Study Bible is my favorite. So. But, you know, but I think I like crossways study Bible. I like. I like Ligonier's study Bible. But I would. I would avoid the women's study Bibles. I would avoid the kind of. You know, and I just would avoid them because I think they. They are going to distract you into taking your. There's just gonna. There are gonna be a couple of rabbit trails that you don't need right now. I'm not saying you should throw that away if you have a good women's study Bible. I'm just saying if you need to get yourself out of the mindset of feminism, you need to be willing to go to boot camp with me for at least six weeks. Yeah. [00:54:25] Speaker B: Do some of these women's study Bibles have a propensity or proclivity towards feminism? [00:54:32] Speaker A: I wouldn't, I, you know, it's certainly very, very possible. We've certainly seen a movement in the last 10 years to turn study Bibles into an activist moment. You know, my personal, you know, the, The Zondervan. And I really think Zondervan should be flogged for this. This is just my opinion put together. This is my opinion. I'm decaffeinated people, so I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna be too harsh. They. They allowed Preston Sprinkle to commandeer something he calls the Upside Down Kingdom Study Bible, which is the first side. B, gay Christian, celibate, gay Christian study Bible in the history of the dumpster fire of study Bible. So, you know, I think, I think the temptation. And, you know, and we all have to be really careful about this when I sit down and read the Bible, that's part of Why? I really have just. I have to take myself by the throat in terms of my Bible reading. So I separated into three separate things. I have my, my, my plan to read through the Bible and I use Ligonier's table talk. And then I have a session in the middle of the day where I'm going to work on Bible memory and I use Andy Davis's book How to memorize Scripture for Life. And then I have, at the end of my day I want to meditate on something and I use, you know, I mean, I just basically will kind of go over my scripture memory, go over my notes for my morning. That's just like the last thing I want to think about before I go to bed. And that the meditation doesn't take long because I'm 64 and I usually fall asleep even before I take a melatonin. So I mean, you know what I'm saying? I'm not. Don't use me as an example, guys. It's dreadful. The flesh is weak. But what I am saying is you want to be careful. I have to be careful that I don't become a one note wonder. Like I have to be careful that, you know, I don't only come and talk to you about what's wrong with feminism. I know I need to talk to you about what's right. [00:56:41] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:56:41] Speaker A: With the Lord Jesus Christ. What's right with the biblical worldview. I can have an example, but I don't want to make a, you know, I don't, I'm not making a career out of any of this. You know, I mean, my saving joy is that I'm a housewife. I don't have a job to lose. That's why I say the things I say. And you know, if I tear up a little turf at a conference and nobody wants to publish the talk. Okay. I've talked to a couple of hundred women in a room. I mean, I, you know, I'm okay with that. If I need to repent of sin, I'm okay with that too. But this idea that when I quote people I'm slandering them really confuses a pretty basic point. And that's when iron sharpens iron. [00:57:30] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I like how it framed that. The whole about being in on boot camp and book ending really beginning with the word and concluding with the word. That's one of the things I tell my children when we conclude our night is we, we close out the day the way we began. And that's with worship and, and in, in scripture reading and in Prayer and singing the psalm together. And I. And we'll close out this podcast. Really. There's one more part in. In your book where in the five lies of Our Anti Christian Age, you mentioned how when you became a member in a Presbyterian church, you took on vows and you weren't fully converted and everything about you transformed all the way. But you mentioned that you had to change. You say I had to change everything, but I couldn't change everything at once. The Bible showed me how to change. The church held me tenderly, and the Lord provided for me at every juncture. Yeah, And I love that. I love that line about the Lord, help me at every juncture. And I. I was reading, I was in devotion with. With one of my sons this morning, and we were meditating on the steadfast love of the Lord. His mercies are new every morning. And great is his faithfulness. And that is the wonderful thing about that is so wonderful about our Lord, is that that he is faithful, that he shepherds us and leads us and guides us. And great is his faithfulness. Great is his faithfulness. So, Rosario, I don't know if you have any last thoughts that you would like to comment about that. [00:59:15] Speaker A: Well, it's funny you mentioned my church membership vows. I actually keep them. I keep a little tab of them on the inside cover of my Bible. And I look at them and I think about that. I think about the fact that when I took these vows, I could not. I actually knew I could not keep them without the Lord. The danger right now is I look at these vows and woe to me if I think I've kept them. Yeah, okay. Like, woe to me. Now, I'm not suggesting that you should take membership vows ignorantly, right? Because actually, one of our vows is. You understand these vows, right? So you are not to be, you know, careless, but you are to be. You are to be penitent. You are to be humble before them. No one, we can't keep any of the vows that we've ever made without God, who is our great vow keeper. He keeps us in his steadfast love. He, you know, what is it, Psalm 18:36. He widens the path beneath our feet, right? It's sort of David, like running around a curve and the path gets narrow and all of a sudden it gets wide. Okay? He does that for us. But it's in our humility that it is God who is in charge. And so one of the real challenges we have is we are in a Christian world where people have abandoned inerrancy they have abandoned the idea of the sufficiency of scripture. They have abandoned the authority of the church. They have abandoned the, you know, just the truth that every word is for your edification. And when they create man made ways of acting as though they're more merciful than God, than God himself. [01:01:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:22] Speaker A: Without intending to, they are producing apostate, Chris. You know, apostates. You know, I don't, I don't believe you can deconstruct your faith because I don't believe you could construct your faith. [01:01:34] Speaker C: Right. [01:01:34] Speaker A: But when I go to a conference, at least these days, there are a number of people there who are simply there because they want me to pray, pray for their apostate child. And when you hear what the podcast they've been listening to or what the Instagram, you know, like, it. It is a really scary thing for many, many, many people. And I would say no family is untouched by this. No heart is untouched by this. So, so to, To. To really, to really take yourself by the throat. All of us. Me, you. I look at those vows and I have, have. I kept them only by the grace of God. But even there, I've, I've stumbled more than I can, I can tell you. But here's what I know about these vows. It's not like my membership to the ymca. Okay. Okay. I mean, like, I don't get to look at these vows and say, you know, I just don't think they're convenient anymore. I need a different lap pool or, I was looking for a facility with pickleball. No, no, these are vows. These are vows. And you get what you get. And I do speak to a number of women who are not feminists, who are very faithful women. Many of them are elders, wives. And, and they will confess that they're getting a little, you know, tired maybe with the preaching they're hearing at their church or their da, da, da, da. And I try to listen sympathetically, but then I usually say, huh, do you have a Bible? And here's why. If you have a Bible, then you should not be complaining to anybody about some kind of lack that you're experiencing from faithful preaching in your church. I mean, I get it. Like, you know, if you are at a church for a long time, you've probably heard, heard some, some familiar contours. Right? Likewise, if you've been married for, you know, a couple of decades, probably the meal plan hasn't changed a whole lot. Unless, Unless your doctor comes, you know, with a new prescription. [01:03:55] Speaker B: I plead. [01:03:56] Speaker A: But here's what I Know, every meal has nourished you. Every sermon that's faithful has nourished you. So if you need to supplement by going and reading your Bible on that passage, better understanding it, then go do it. Yeah, you're supposed to. [01:04:16] Speaker C: So good. Well, now I'd like to launch us onto the second hour of the podcast. [01:04:25] Speaker A: I can't wait to see you all. This is a big family reunion, and anybody who wants to come to our conference is immediately enfolded into this family reunion. [01:04:33] Speaker C: Yes. And I'm so excited to be bringing our oldest daughter. I'm so excited that she's coming to intern at this conference and just to get to partake in all of this. And I really am not starting the second hour of the podcast, but I do want to just highlight for people, Rosaria, that in addition to the talk that you're giving on feminism, you and I will be speaking together on Friday night. And I was. I was reading back through line number three this morning in preparation for the podcast, and you had an admonition for the church that we really probably need to refresh ourselves on a good theology of civil disobedience. And I know that you have been speaking at school board meetings, and I believe even in front of your state legislature. And I've been paying attention closely to the fact that there are bills that are being passed right now, even in the federal state house. The House of representatives just passed HR 2616, which is a bill that's meant to stop schools from indoctrinating kids and then protecting the secrecy around their social transitions at school. I pray sincerely to God that the Senate will actually have the backbone to pass this thing and pass it into law so that the president can sign it. And yet, in the meantime, what that says to us is that there are teachers who are Christians and there are school board members who are Christians who have rules like these on the books that they are following rather than disobeying misunderstanding obligations as Christians. [01:06:15] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. So if I can just speak to that for a minute. I think there's a real kind of just a gaping gulf right now between the really exciting court cases received even at the Supreme Court level. This is going to be. This is a big year. But here in my little plot of the land here, we still have rogue school boards that defy the parental rights laws that are on the books. They just defy it. They just outright defy it. And my strong recommendation, because I believe we need to be Christian citizens. [01:06:52] Speaker C: Yes. [01:06:52] Speaker A: And I think that's going to look differently for Each of us, Right. I'm, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm not homeschooling anymore. I'm, I'm, I'm at the matriarch level. So I'm in a great place. You know, I'm not, not dead yet. So in a great place to go and testify before these boards and things. But I strongly recommend that we also think about how to resource those people in the public schools. So while we're talking about laws, you still have boys in girls bathrooms, you still have teachers being really blackmailed about ridiculous things like pronouns. So there's an organization I work very closely with. You may know about it. It's called decisionpoint.org Mark Hobson is the CEO. I will be sure to introduce you. I will not put his cell phone right here for everybody. I won't tell you what it is. I will text you all later. But I strongly recommend that every single public school have a Decision Point chapter in it, and here's why. Right now, students are the only people with First Amendment rights protected. Faculty and staff have signed those when they signed the Biden 2021 anti bullying legislation thing. [01:08:15] Speaker C: Right. [01:08:15] Speaker A: So we need churches to help students exercise their First Amendment rights, which trickles down to helping students who aren't yet Christian, both know the, the word of God, be evangelized, commit their life to him, but also understand what's going on in the women's rest, understand why this is wrong. [01:08:35] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:08:36] Speaker A: So I strongly recommend working with faithful organizations like decision point.org they actually have a program right now that, that we use in public schools called the Set Free series. And it's based on John 3132. And it has testimonies like mine and Laura Perry's. And it's a, It's. It, you know, like, it's. We say some of the things in the Set Free series that you can't say on YouTube without getting flagged. And you know what? It's just all true. Yeah. Students respond. [01:09:08] Speaker C: Yeah. And there are other things going on too, where, you know, for instance, here in California, we don't have laws on the books. We actually have evil laws on the books that require teachers to hide things from parents. That. And there are outfits and individual religious liberty attorneys who are helping with that. We interviewed Dean Broyles a number of months ago. He's a religious liberties attorney here in Escondido, California, and he works through the Alliance Defending Freedom and other groups so that teachers who are in these positions where they're being asked to lie to parents. They're being asked to honor a student's chosen name and pronouns, that they will be protected in courts of law when they are citizens sued, when they are punished. And that's happening. You know, the Mirabili case is. Is a big one where SCOTUS did make a good decision, but it was a very narrow decision. It's still working its way through the appellate courts right now. And I. I am excited to be able to talk to our people about this at the conference with you, Rosaria, because I think what gets lost in a lot of this is that you and I see on a daily basis the men and women who have been harmed. We've spoken and wept with the parents and the grandparents who have kids that got caught up in this, whose bodies are being damaged and whose minds are being brainwashed, who are being separated away from their families. That's happening right now. It's happening today as we sit here. This is happening in our schools. And the fact that I think the way Dean put it was like, what terrifies him is that he's there available for free in a state where this is happening, and he doesn't have 10,000 teachers knocking down his door for help to stand against this. He has 10. He has a hundred. And so I'm really excited to talk to you about some of that. Now, all of this is practical, right? It's all practical. [01:11:06] Speaker A: Right. [01:11:06] Speaker C: But the steps that people can take, the organizations that people can help to change this, to save those bodies, save those minds by the. The power and work of the Holy Spirit. So I'm really excited for that aspect of this as well. [01:11:23] Speaker A: And you and I, you know, you're a crocheter, I'm a knitter. We're very practical. [01:11:27] Speaker B: Yes. [01:11:28] Speaker A: So we're not going to ask parents or teachers or anybody to just sort of all of a sudden poof, have the capacity to go testify before the legislature. Of course, you know, we're teachers. We understand that there is a step that you can get there, but what the church needs to do is not be so naive about it. It's not like, oh, Mary and Rosaria have the gift of testifying before the legislature. Right. No, we actually had to learn it. This is a learned skill. And you can learn it, too. [01:11:58] Speaker C: Yes. One stitch at a time. One stitch at a time. Right. [01:12:02] Speaker A: But not every. What we are not saying is that nursing mothers need to go stop nursing their babies and go testify before the legislation. [01:12:09] Speaker C: Absolutely. [01:12:10] Speaker A: We are saying that we are the church. Church. And the church has, you know, is Made up of hands and feet and elbows and eyes. And not everybody does the same thing. But here, Mary and I are not dead yet. Since we're not dead yet, we can, you know, crochet our blankets and knit our socks and help you get to a place where you are cultivating the, the strong and bold faith that will both make a difference in the world for the children, but also make a difference in your own heart. [01:12:44] Speaker C: Yes. [01:12:45] Speaker A: Because when you fear man, you know, Proverbs is 29, 25, I think the fear of man is a snare. Snare. It's a snare. A snare is an instrument of execution that snaps at any moment. You don't know what's, you don't know when it's going to snap. [01:13:04] Speaker C: Right. [01:13:05] Speaker A: And, and so the fear of man is a snare, but the fear of God is safe. So a lot of how change has happened is some, some teachers who did not want to fear man and did and were and did not want to be blackmailed by stupidity. [01:13:22] Speaker C: Yes. [01:13:22] Speaker A: They lost their job for the sole purpose of letting ADF defend them in a court of law. [01:13:30] Speaker C: Yes. Yep. [01:13:32] Speaker A: And they won. [01:13:34] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:13:35] Speaker A: But it really speaks to just what is a universal truth about life. [01:13:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:13:40] Speaker A: Especially life as a Christian. When truth lands on the scene, it causes a riot. [01:13:47] Speaker C: Yes. [01:13:47] Speaker A: But it ages well. So we need to be grown ups. We have to be cheerful warriors who are not going to get so touchy about the fact that, you know, sparks are flying. It's a little bit rough out there. [01:14:03] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:14:04] Speaker A: Okay. We're gonna see it through. [01:14:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:14:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:14:08] Speaker C: Amen. [01:14:09] Speaker B: Yep. [01:14:10] Speaker C: Well, if I'll be. [01:14:11] Speaker B: Friday night. [01:14:13] Speaker C: Friday night. Yes. So that those on the ground reports and, and discussion. [01:14:17] Speaker B: We'll be passing out three legged St. [01:14:25] Speaker C: I do have my, my Presby girls Jenny Geeds throw stooling sticker on my writing desk. So when I'm writing I'm looking at Jenny. So, so I just remind everyone it's June 5th, the evening of June 5th, the day of June 6th in Columbia, South Carolina. You can go to Truth Exchange. That's truth, the letter X, the word true change dot com. You can register there. We will have a schedule posted very soon for the actual data hour by hour activities that are happening. And if you want more of this gloriousness with a lot of, a lot of laughing and a lot of love. That's something that I will just draw out once again is that we've never had one of these events where relationships weren't built, where there wasn't fellowship and encouragement. God has been so gracious, please pray for us. Pray for our speakers. Pray for the people who are coming. Pray for the ministry. I would ask, and please join us in June to talk about the God of sex. [01:15:33] Speaker A: Excellent.